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Joe Hancock

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Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2007, 09:23:27 PM »
I'll never forget when Sir J. Eric Thompson said this to me: "What's Mayan is yours and what's yours is Mayan". A perfect gentleman, he was......
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

paul cowley

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Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2007, 09:35:25 PM »
....put me down as one who knows of Thompsons work, and also one who has travelled the long and winding sacbes of things Mayan.

I also appreciate the Fazio groups work....but I also appreciate Jays right as a critic....someone who asks questions that make me think of where I stand if I had to answer.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:38:28 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

wsmorrison

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2007, 09:47:21 PM »
Paul, er Walrus,

Where do the long and winding sacbes lead me, to your door?



"Well I'm friends with a number of prominent Mayanologists too - including those in charge on site at Chichen Itza and Copan and have traveled extensively throughout the Mayan world as well. Not only that, but I also have an extensive Mayan library as well...and yes, I bloody well do know how much of excavated Tikal is at the Penn Museum."

Yeah, well Jay, my brother can beat up your brother.  Nyaa, nyaa.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 12:22:18 PM by Wayne Morrison »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2007, 10:01:38 PM »
Paul, er Walrus,

Where do the long and winding sacbes lead me, to your door?

Wayne....in a sense they do because the underlying strata of where I live is part of the same Karst formation that encompasses most of the Yucatan Peninsula....which produced the material that was used to create the roads, or sacbes, of their region.

I think this geologic feature petered out just south of the Philly airport...but I could be wrong...ask TP. ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 10:02:27 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2007, 10:05:36 PM »
I think this geologic feature petered out.....

Uncomfortable subject matter....but a clever explanation. May I borrow it?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2007, 10:13:42 PM »
I think this geologic feature petered out.....

Uncomfortable subject matter....but a clever explanation. May I borrow it?

Joe....feel free to borrow anything but my fiance.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

John Kavanaugh

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2007, 12:17:35 AM »
I played his Pronghorn course this year and thought it was very good

I thought you were helping solve poverty and crime.  Things must be tough out in Fazioville.

I've heard of the Thompson fellow myself...Didn't he write Fear and Loathing in Los Colinas?  In all seriousness Jay deserves better than this.  He is as good as any other golf writer working today.  I've heard that Rees is considering hiring him as a consultant on his next project...Rubber Room National.

RJ_Daley

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Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2007, 12:28:11 AM »
Well... you know what the Mayan's say:

Nya b’a’n tu’n toc tjemin jun tx’yan, ku’n nlay mojin tuc’iy aj ticy’x k’on tib’aj k’ak’.
It is not good to hit a dog because it will no longer help you in case you need to pass the flames of a fire.

Words to live by my friends.   8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brad Klein

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Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2007, 02:18:32 AM »
The opening two posts are the best evidence we have that Webs are much in need of editors and that writers impressed with themselves will ramble.

Having said that, there's a lot of interesting stuff in there, but what I don't understand is why paint Fazio as the devil when the really culpable people are the clients who seemingly are bamboozled by all of this flim flam.

Had a long talk last night with Tom Paul on this. We agreed that Fazio is perfectly free to espouse a particularly modernist approach, esp. when doing his own new courses. But when the practice extends to redoing classic courses the doctrine gets more troubling because then it starts rewriting and effacing history and tradition And also that there must be something in his message about improving, smoothing out and framing everything into a pretty picture that has an appeal to many folks these days. In which case, Fazio is a lot smarter than he's given credit for. Why blame him for running a successful business? It's a matter of the taste and judgment that people have that seems to be the real issue.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 07:11:43 AM by Brad Klein »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2007, 06:14:38 AM »
Well... you know what the Mayan's say:

Nya b’a’n tu’n toc tjemin jun tx’yan, ku’n nlay mojin tuc’iy aj ticy’x k’on tib’aj k’ak’.
It is not good to hit a dog because it will no longer help you in case you need to pass the flames of a fire.

Words to live by my friends.   8)

Amen RJ....good post BTW ;D
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2007, 06:15:23 AM »

Of the hundreds of courses Fazio has designed, indisputable masterpieces? Perhaps World Woods. Everything else? They’re great resorts or pretty places - Pelican Hill, TPC Myrtle Beach, Ventana Canyon, Barton Creek - pretty places that have golf, but isn’t there a reason no major championship has returned to a Fazio design? Yes, there is. Because when you look behind agronomy and horticulture, look behind the “$500,000 cooling system underneath the 3rd green at Ventana Canyon Mountain Course to keep the green at a consistent temperature, look behind the meaningless mantra of “hard par, easy bogey,” look behind the flash and waterfalls and stained glass windows and “magic gates” that open to let you into the facility, you see what the U.S.G.A. and PGA knew since 1987 after the last Fazio design held a major. His work on the ground - the lack of fairway undulations and green contours and strategies - does not quite soar to the heights reached by either classics by Mackenzie, Ross and Seth Raynor or the modern day work of Pete Dye and Tom Doak.

So, the USGA and PGA knows that "His work on the ground - the lack of fairway undulations and green contours and strategies - does not quite soar to the heights reached by either classics by Mackenzie, Ross and Seth Raynor or the modern day work of Pete Dye and Tom Doak."

I am not bashing Torrey Pines South and wouldn't mind playing it again someday but do you really think that USGA chose that course due to it's "fairway undulations and green contours and strategies". And do you think that it "soar to the heights reached by either classics by Mackenzie, Ross and Seth Raynor or the modern day work of Pete Dye and Tom Doak"?.

And Fazio... You build holes like:



and then claim that "If I can make a rule for golf, if I was rating a course, I'd say no hazards perpindicular to the line of play. I'd take off points for that."

Alright...

TEPaul

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2007, 06:20:45 AM »
"I think this geologic feature petered out just south of the Philly airport...but I could be wrong...ask TP."

Paul:

I don't know what a sacbe is or a Karst strata but I do know pretty much everything south of the Philly airport petered out long ago. That is the land William Penn gave to Quaker James W. Paul---it's the worst land in the Delaware Valley and it always was. Even that eternally wandering Indian tribe, the Whathfuccawees, knew enough about where the f.. they were not to go there. Have you ever wondered why I never get any respect from anyone? It's part of my heritage. James W. Paul's brother, Thomas Paul, my own Quaker namesake, was on his way from England to that God forsaken land south of the airport but before he could catch the boat they cut his head off. But, as history records, he decided to go to the New World anyway.  
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 06:33:50 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2007, 06:48:07 AM »
The opening two posts are the best evidence we have that Webs are much in need of editors and that writers impressed with themselves will ramble.

Having said that, there's a lot of interesting stuff in there, but what I don't understand is why paint Fazio as the devil when the really culpable people are the clients who seemingly are bamboozled by all of this flim flam.

Had a long talk last night with Tom Paul on this. We agreed that Fazio is perfectly free to esposuse a particularly modernist approach, esp. when doing his own new courses. But when the practice extends to redoing classic courses the doctrine gets more troubling because then it starts rewriting and effacing history and tradition And also that there must be something in his message about improving, smoothing out and framing everything into a pretty picture that has an appeal to many folks these days. In whuch case, Fazio is a lot smarter than he's given credit for. Why blame him for running a successful business. It's a matter of the taste and judgment that people have that seems to be the real issue.

Brad ....boy, I would have enjoyed donating a few bottles of red to that discussion. :)

I agree that the Fazio group creates a great product for thier market....and they meet thier clients demands.

I also wish I could still play the old Seaside nine [Colt and Allison] that was buried under a new layer that has jumped into the top 100 New....but they did at least honour these older architects by naming thier 5 star restaurant after them.

I also know that the instruction they were given by the client was to create something world class and attention getting....and they delivered.

My point is that clients and owners wishes can frequently combine to erase history, and its not always the GCA's call.....ANGC is a poster child for this.

Hell, I'm sure someone out there will write something to sit on a coffee table that tries to document all the historical changes that have occurred there, and Fazio will be found in chapter 12.....which is one reason I like to create various historical elements in courses.

It helps to get the first few chapters out of the way. ;)  



« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 06:51:49 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2007, 06:48:15 AM »
"Had a long talk last night with Tom Paul on this."

That's true. Frankly, there is no kind of talk anyone can have with me other than a long talk. And that's the primary reason all my posts are so short.

Good post, Brad.


"But when the practice extends to redoing classic courses the doctrine gets more troubling because then it starts rewriting and effacing history and tradition And also that there must be something in his message about improving, smoothing out and framing everything into a pretty picture that has an appeal to many folks these days. In whuch case, Fazio is a lot smarter than he's given credit for. Why blame him for running a successful business. It's a matter of the taste and judgment that people have that seems to be the real issue."


Brad's point there is of course a good one.

However, what I cannot understand is the total difference between what Tom Fazio sometimes says and what he does. This example below makes that pretty clear and ironically both Brad Klein and I were there.

About ten years ago I got the idea that GAP should put on a restoration forum around here but the board didn't want to do it. But later, maybe six or so years ago somebody else on the board picked up on it and got Fazio to agree to speak at what was called "A Restoration Forum".

At that point I convince the board to get another speak who could act as something of a counterpoint to Fazio. I tried to get Shackelford but he wouldn't do it. So I got Brad. The other participant on the agenda was long time Merion Green Chairman Wilson Greenwood. The forum even had a professional moderator and it was very well attended as the day was GAP's annual "Pro/president/golf and green chairman" meeting.

Fazio spoke first and sort of stunned the meeting by saying that he and his uncle George had agreed twenty five years ago to never do another restoration since there was no money in it. Clearly this implied that Tom Fazio apparently felt he had never done another restoration. Next he said something else pretty remarkable. He said he felt their apparent restoration of Oak Hill had been a real disaster and that he was sorry he'd done it.

Of course most of us were wondering if Tom Fazio felt he hadn't done a restoration in twenty five years why was he bothering to speak at a forum that was about restoration? And since he was working on Merion at that time what was it  he was doing there, since that project was promoted as a "restoration" with the catchy label "Back to the Future"?

This was all odd enough to me that perhaps I missed the gist of what he said next which was he was trying to improve these old courses and that he felt any of those old guys, had they been alive today, would be doing the same thing.

Next, Bill Greenwood spoke about how Merion was in the final stages of an approximately twelve year restoration project.

Brad Klein, spoke last and that was the first time I heard him deliver that line which I think he's become somewhat famous for.

The moderator asked Brad when he first got interested in golf course architecture and what he remembered about his first impressions about it.

Brad said:

"My first impression was that even rich people can be real idiots too."

WELL---there were about two hundred pretty rich people in that room and for about five seconds there was total silence and I was thinking "OH SHIT" and then everyone started to roar with laughter.

It was a pretty odd forum but perhaps I have not realized until now that what Fazio said that day is exactly the way he feels about these old classic courses and the old classic architects who built them.

Two hundred people heard him too and so Brad is probably right----the responsibility for these courses and their restoration or preservation rests with those people who run and manage those golf courses and not with Tom Fazio.



 
 
 

« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 07:22:23 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2007, 06:56:44 AM »
"Had a long talk last night with Tom Paul on this."

That's true. Frankly, there is no kind of talk anyone can have with me other than a long talk. And that's the primary reason all my posts are so short.

Good post, Brad.


....not to mention your fine first post out of the blocks this morning. I admire those that can wake up with humour on thier mind....and I have come to appreciate that you are one walking stack of historical empirica....and good looking too! :-*
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 06:58:20 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

wsmorrison

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2007, 07:15:30 AM »
Actually Tom, the fascinating story of the early settlement of land south of the Philadelphia airport is seldom told.  

Nobody respected the  Whathfuccawees.  The Lenni-Lenapes and the Whothfuccatheys used to take turns stealin their women and regularly beating their warriors in lacrosse at the old De La Ware Spectrum.   One day while the chief of the Whothfuucatheys, Whothfuccismucci, was in Mexico on a golf trip to play the world-renown Mayan golf courses designed by Mazio, the Whathfuccawee chief's top advisor Flynnisfuccingreat came up with a cunning plan.  

The only thing the Whathfuccawees were good at is growing the best wacky tabacky in the De La Ware valley.  Flynnisfuccingreat convinced the chief to make an offering of his best wacky tabacky to the Whothfuccatheys.  While they were busy smoking and tired from being nagged constantly by the Whathfuccawee women, the Whathfuccawees snuck into camp and kicked all of the Whothfuccatheys off their land and sent them off to Manhattan island, which they later sold for some beads because the regular shipment of wacky tabacky sent by Flynnisfuccingreat clouded their judgment for all time.

Upon returning from his Maya golf trip, Whothfuccismucci had no tribe and no land.  He heard about this new golf designer on Long Island, Whothfuccismacdonald, and moved there to golf and was never heard from again.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 05:25:25 PM by Wayne Morrison »

wsmorrison

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2007, 07:23:43 AM »
All kidding aside (honest), if the reports of Fazio's ideas on classic era courses is true, there is some interesting stuff among some very strange writing.  I hope Fazio's perspective (if it is as presented) can be countered with reason and debate in a forum that will lead to a better understanding and appreciation of the history of our playing fields.  Ultimately, it is many of our hopes that this leads to more informed restoration and preservation efforts.  This is something most or all of us can rally behind .  

TEPaul

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2007, 07:28:34 AM »
Which only goes to prove that Timucuan Indian, Tommy Birdsong, of Fernandina Beach Municipal GC fame was the only decent American Indian golf course architect.

TEPaul

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2007, 07:34:11 AM »
Wayne:

Apropos of your post #41 read again what I wrote on that post just above (#38). That is what Fazio said at a restoration forum in Philadelphia. I know because I was there and so was Brad Klein. We heard it and it's pretty clear. What he wants to do when he goes into these old clubs with classic courses is improve them. That's what he said. Obviously he must mean improve them to deal with the modern game and improved technology. Apparently that's what he believes he should do and apparently his clients who run and administer these courses are not and do not disagree with him.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 07:38:20 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2007, 07:45:20 AM »
...screw it...I guess you are probably all right about most of this stuff...so I'll be heading to the swamp to have a visual dialog with some flames in a fire pit..... its always interesting to ponder exactly what fire is...similar to watching ice crystals melt.
So carry on with the heavy lifting guys.....maybe I can come back with something to contribute....I'll miss you. :)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 07:49:44 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2007, 07:47:52 AM »
Wayne:

I'm glad you got serious again with post #41.

You're right, to have an intelligent and productive discussion on classic course restoration or preservation this site probably needs to stop mindlessly bashing an architect like Fazio and begin to look at the facts and look at them in detail.

So what are the facts and what are they in detail?

First, I guess it should be asked what Fazio is doing or has done differently than any other architect who's been hired by a classic course club to do a project?

What about distance additions? What about moving bunkers and such or redoing greens in the name of speed and things such as that? What about changing the look of classic courses, their bunkers or whatever?

Is Fazio the only one who does those things?

That's what we need to talk about in detail if justice will ever get done in the name of restoration and preservation of some of these classic golf courses, not to even mention attempting to be somewhat fair to an architect like Tom Fazio.


John Kavanaugh

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2007, 07:56:22 AM »
If Fazio had taken the modern route of writing a book before he built a course he would still be at Barnes and Noble rubbing deer piss on the books of his competition.  The man has serious issues commucating his thoughts and ideas on golf architecture.  He writes one thing and builds another time after time.  We need to stay away from his words and evaluate his work.  Of course, this can be said of Doak as well...the master communicator.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 07:56:56 AM by John Kavanaugh »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2007, 08:08:30 AM »
John..."We need to stay away from his words and evaluate his work."....this is especially true when it comes to evaluating my stuff.  ;) ....and would probably hold true for you as well, if you ever get the chance to put something in the ground......doesn't your brother ever need a little help? :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2007, 08:11:58 AM »
John Kavanaugh:

So, you think Fazio is saying one thing and doing another?

Could you explain what you think he's doing differently from what he's saying?

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I'm concerned about a pattern of Tom Fazio comments about GCA
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2007, 08:15:04 AM »
As often discussed, Fazio is a common target on this site.  While I will never claim knowledge of the Mayan culture or a current desire to expand my knowledge, over the years Fazio has struck me as a chameleon.  Maybe this is overly simplistic, but it appears his words are chosen to appease his current audience.

My experience with his courses is limited to Victoria National, his two east courses at Bonita Bay and his two courses at PGA Village in Port St. Lucie, FL.  At each of these facilities, it's easy to pick out holes that contradict his apparent disdain for perpindicular hazards.  What also surprised me was the creativity of the green contours on many of the holes, not the stereotypical flat, bland surfaces.  Hole #3 on the old North Course (now called Ryder Course) at PGA Village is a good example, a tri-leveled green with lots of movement.

Some people like to say what others may like to hear.  Owners and developers drive the bus and control the money, not critics.

Ken

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