[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Since you have friends there and a US Open coming, I would say it should be in reference to how Merion has "settled in" post his work at Merion and post US Amateur. The main criticisms that come out today on GCA towards Merion seem to be maintenance driven (fairway width and the intensity of the green speeds), and the possibility of changing/moving greens.

None of this has to do with Fazio's work/changes.

Mike,

Just because some of us have exhausted the topic (and ourselves) countless times discussing the issues over the past 5+ years, I wouldn't automatically assume that either of your contentions above are correct.

Just because there is no longer any sound on GCA doesn't mean that a tree didn't fall in the forest.  

As Forrest Gump would say, "and that's all I have to say about that".  

[Jay Flemma]

To TomP, Jay and others:

Most of you know that the ASGCA holds annual seminars and round table discussions that include outside speakers from related fields. Mr Fazio and others oft mentioned here are frequent participants. I have always thought that it would be very interesting if a small delegation from GCAtlas could be incorporated in some interesting format....headed by TomP and a few other notables...Doak might be a good one...and engage in design dialogue.

I would offer my services to help ensure a semblance of moderation...of course I would be dressed in a Great Kilt with at least five knives on most of my appendages, and also have a 4' Claymore broadsword strapped to my back to loudly thump down on the table if I needed keep order.

I think this proposal has merit....now lets see if it has legs.

I agree Paul, that would be a great idea.  Getting the ASGCA to host an event would be terrific for us to have our voice heard as a group.

[jim_lewis]

Count me out when it comes to asking Tom Fazio to clarify his design philosophies. I have no interest in what an architect says, especially Fazio, who is is the least articulate of any I have met. What matters to me is the product an architect actually produces, not what he says. (The same applies to politicians.)

It seems to me that time is better spent discussing an architect's courses. Generalizing about an architect's work based on a small sample or based on what he says is pretty risky.

I have a theory regarding Fazio's apparent lack of reverence for the great architects that came before him. I goes like this.
He just might think is is better than any other architect, living or dead. I suspect he thinks that there are no golf courses that he could not improve, if given a chance. It is not uncommon for individuals at the top of their profession to think they are better than those of prior eras.  Barry Bonds may think he is better than Babe Ruth. Roger Clemmons may think he was better than Walter Johnson or Bob Feller. Jack Nicklaus probably thought he was better than Hogan or Jones. Shaq probably thinks he is better than Wilt. Bill Clinton probably thought he was better than Kennedy. Jeff Gordon probably thinks he is better than Fireball Roberts. (I threw that last one in for Tom Paul.) Some of those guys might be right, but I doubt it. It is probably hard to get to the  top of your field of endeavor unless you have enough confidence to think you belong there.

[Jay Flemma]

Mike C, are you sure there is no sound or perhaps merely a confused echo only on GCA?  I don't think that's true.

Despite our fighting at times, I have not lost faith that we can speak with one voice, articulate a position to the world, and use our collective wealth of knowledge to protect a feature of the game we hold dear and to defend GCA principles intelligently.

[wsmorrison]

There are 1500 people on this website.  What issues do you think we are all in unanimous accord on?  I haven't seen one yet.  I don't believe in speaking with one voice.  We speak our own minds and who is to say that everybody's is made up?

Any gathering that begins with the notion that one position or one voice represents us all is a mistake.  Any gathering that begins with the point of view that our assembled knowledge base will protect and defend a noble cause against an infidel is bound to falter before it begins.  Anything less than the parties coming to the table with open minds willing to listen and share ideas is a pretentious notion and unlikely to succeed at anything except to further alienate all parties.  

A friendly outreach and interchange is the way to present this rather than going in with a sense of duty to protect and to defend.  I think Paul made a very kind gesture to initiate a discussion.  However, I'm not sure the ASGCA (which currently does not admit restoration specialists) is the right banner to hold a meeting under.  

Mike C is correct.  Just because some on this site aren't aware of things happening, it doesn't mean they are not.  I have a belief as to how to handle specific issues such as this and it isn't by authorizing an auto de fe.

I trust everyone on this sites is assured that Tom Fazio or members of his staff have read this stuff.  Who among us thinks for one second after the pummeling he gets on here, that he would consider doing something along the lines of meeting with an assemblage of members of this site?  I think it is far-fetched.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike C, are you sure there is no sound or perhaps merely a confused echo only on GCA?  I don't think that's true.

Despite our fighting at times, I have not lost faith that we can speak with one voice, articulate a position to the world, and use our collective wealth of knowledge to protect a feature of the game we hold dear and to defend GCA principles intelligently.

Jay,

This would seem to be the exact opposite purpose of this discussion group?

Even you seem to have two voices about Tom Fazio, "That being said, PB (World Woods-Pine Barrens) is prbly my fave Fazio design...then maybe ventana canyon next...PB has great angles and cross hazards, bunkering and greens."

MikeC,

I knew you were out there!  

[Jay Flemma]

Brad Klein I do not agree...you are every bit as dedicated to GCA as any architect and yet here is an opportunity to stick up for great strategy and your saying that this body should NOT take a position?

There bis nothing at all delusional about GCA writing a position paper setting forth our wish that we appreciate redans and bunkering from TOC and saying that we think it's wrong to just mark off for perpendicular hazards.

The voices of sanity, in my opinion are not those of the naysayers, but the claymans, pauls, and cowleys of the thread.  We cannot stand idly by and let someone with a great deal of influence have a free pass in denouncing the very features we strive so hard to promote.  Its much simpler then you and wayne are making it, Brad.

This is what Ran wrote on the home page:

"While golf course architecture is a subjective art form, several key tenets have stood the test of time. These are explored in an effort to understand why some courses are more fascinating than others, and to understand why such courses continually beckon for a return game."

All I'm sying is Fazio is attacking some key tenets and we should stand up for them.  You dont find this delusional brad...your column is about it all the time.

[Dan Kelly]

Brad Klein I do not agree...you are every bit as dedicated to GCA as any architect and yet here is an opportunity to stick up for great strategy and your saying that this body should NOT take a position?

I"m not going to wade into this, except to say: "This body" does not exist.

[Jay Flemma]

Dan, why do you feel we cant all agree that we think redans and TOC bunkering and perp hazards are of value to the game?

I mean that's essentially what we are talking about here...no matter whether its me or Brad or Ran or Sweeney saying it.  That's the message that we all can send, as a group.

Or are we just here to talk?

Mackenzie said in Spirit that we should fight for great GCA as though the british empire were at stake.  I agree.

[Dan Kelly]

I don't want to be part of any group telling Tom Fazio how to run his business.

Very frankly, I'm not qualified. Yes, I'm just here to talk.

Feel free to launch whatever campaigns you care to launch, on your own account, but you'll just have to leave me out of it.

[Andy Troeger]

Jay,
I'd like to ask, how many Fazio original designs have you actually played? Out of those, how many are considered his best work?

Here's a sample based on the magazines:
Wade Hampton
Shadow Creek
Dallas National
World Woods Pine Barrens
Galloway National
Black Diamond Ranch Quarry
Victoria National
Karsten Creek
Quarry at LaQuinta
Flint Hills National
Sage Valley
Briggs Ranch
The Estancia Club
Trump National Bedminster
The Preserve
Whisper Rock Upper
Butler National (w/G. Fazio)
Galloway National
Sand Ridge
Sea Island Seaside
Forest Creek North

I applaud your enthusiasm for the subject but the facts do not totally follow your opinion for many of us. If you want to make a crusade following your beliefs go for it, but what others are saying and I agree with is that doing it under the GCA body would misrepresent the variety of opinions that makes this discussion site great.

[Jay Flemma]

Andy I've played a LARGE number probably around 15, possibly more, including pub and private.  Before I started studying GCA, he was one of my favorite architects.

This is not a referendum on his courses.  We can stick up for our principles without attacking his courses, just asking him to give some thought to our position...even he doesn't listen, the golf world will hear a position different from his regarding the value of strategic features...thats all I'm saying here...no atack on the man or his designs at all...just a dialogue.

I mean are there people out there that think we HAVE had enough redans?  enough TOC bunkers?  enough perp hazards?  Speak uo if you do...I still have heard no one say that yet...no matter how they feel about wnything else on this thread...and that is the core of the apple we are considering...

[Robert Thompson]

My thought was a letter, signed by Ran and Ben, and then with all 1500 of our signatures on it too, asking for further clarification on minutiae such as these:

Jay: Don't take this the wrong way, but if you want clarification from Tom, pick up the phone and call his office. He's pretty easy to get a hold of -- I've spoken to him on a number of occasions and he's always fairly receptive. He is very aware of GCA, but laughs it off mainly. I know -- I asked. Does he owe you or anyone else a response? No, but he might offer one.

But don't take him lightly. Just because the cabal here doesn't care for his work doesn't mean he hasn't spent nearly 40 years building courses, some of which have merit. He made flip remarks in my interview as well -- does he truly believe them? I don't know. Maybe he's just trying to be provocative.

But writing him a note -- something I know Ben and Ran won't do -- sounds a touch extreme. Pick up the phone. Ask him yourself.

[Andy Troeger]

Jay,
The point is that you are taking "YOUR" position and turning it into "OUR" position without first finding out how many of us actually agree with you! I do agree with portions of what you said in your original post, but not to a point of sending it off to Mr. Fazio.

I think the great thing about GCA is the variety of courses presented. I don't think we need 100 architects all trying to design the exact same thing. Give me a combination of Engh, Doak, Fazio, RTJ, Dye, etc. Makes it more fun to see what all can be done with a golf hole. Of course some of it works better for me than others, but so is life.

[Mike_Young]

Andy I've played a LARGE number probably around 15, possibly more, including pub and private.  Before I started studying GCA, he was one of my favorite architects.

Jay,
Great statement....24000000 golfers and maybe 1500 "study" golf architecture.....the numbers favor TF.
IMHO this website would be laughed off by most in the business if it took any stance..... just like a baseball team laughing off a fan club

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Point of clarification: Mr. Flemma has misquoted me in this post and I would appreciate a retraction. It was Ron Whitten who wrote:

"Will his architecture be the enduring standard for golf design well into the future? You should hope not, if you're one who believes that golf should still be a test of thought and skill rather than just a walk on the beach where you never get sand in your shoes."

I most definitely did not utter that last metaphor Mr. Flemma attributed to me. Here's the article:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_5_56/ai_n14696174

For what it's worth, this argument has taken place many times on this site and though I may be redundant, I can't resist asking the same question that always comes to mind: why isn't there a discussion board and web site devoted to celebrating the works of Mssrs. Fazio and the other followers of the Framing School of Design?

Surely if the work is as strong as advertised, there must be much to discuss and celebrate?

[paul cowley]

Jay.....its been a long day...but before you go to bed see if you can round up a copy of TomP's "Big World Theory", although I'm not sure if it's out in soft copy yet.

Its kind of hard to read for some of us, but when I get to a particularly tough passage, I have a habit of tearing out the page that is farthest back in the book to start a fire with, and then I begin to stare, and I just go from there...... it works!



 

[Michael Moore]

For what it's worth, this argument has taken place many times on this site and though I may be redundant, I can't resist asking the same question that always comes to mind: why isn't there a discussion board and web site devoted to celebrating the works of Mssrs. Fazio and the other followers of the Framing School of Design?

Geoff -

Which architects and schools of design have celebratory discussion boards devoted to them?

[Jay Flemma]

Point of clarification: Mr. Flemma has misquoted me in this post and I would appreciate a retraction. It was Ron Whitten who wrote:

"Will his architecture be the enduring standard for golf design well into the future? You should hope not, if you're one who believes that golf should still be a test of thought and skill rather than just a walk on the beach where you never get sand in your shoes."

I most definitely did not utter that last metaphor Mr. Flemma attributed to me. Here's the article:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_5_56/ai_n14696174

Dear Geoff:

Thanks for pointing that out!.  I'll fix it right away.  I DID find the link on your website that had a discussion of the Whitten quote and article.  I think I simply got confused as to what you were quoting and your commentary as your comments frequently are interspersed within the body of the piece you discuss.  I actually like that.

Geoff, from one Golf Observer guy to another, I'm sorry about that.  I made a human error, but its easily fixable.  By the time you read this, I'll have it amended.  For future reference, if the shoe were ever on the other foot, I'd be delighted to contact you in private.  

I hope you appreciate that I linked to your excellent work on the debate.  As you were present with Mr. Fazio at the debate in question, would you be good enough to give us your personal perspective?

Paul, it has been a long day...I even billed several hours of work at the office...but the day was not without instruction.  We achieved plenty of good debate today.  I wont have time to read your recommendation today, but I will over the holiday.  It was good to spend time with you and Tom.  maybe I'll take Rob T's advice.  In a matter such as this, perhaps too many cooks can spoil the broth.

I wish we could find something where we all could agree and stand together as a group and champion a good cause.  It beats sitting around arguing all day.

[Paul Stephenson]

I wish we could find something where we all could agree and stand together as a group and champion a good cause.  It beats sitting around arguing all day.

We all like golf.  A lot?

From there it seems to get difficult.

[hhuffines]

Mr. Femma,

I think you are very confused, particulary about Tobacco Road.  Ask Ran if he's paid a greens fee there and when that last took place.

#17 and #18 may be the worst finishing holes I've played.

BTW, my name is Hart Huffines not "that guy."

[Sean_A]

Mr. Femma,

I think you are very confused, particulary about Tobacco Road.  Ask Ran if he's paid a greens fee there and when that last took place.

#17 and #18 may be the worst finishing holes I've played.

BTW, my name is Hart Huffines not "that guy."

Hart

I haven't spoken with Ran concerning his thoughts on The Road.  His profile of TR is very guarded - almost as if he applauds the effort more than the result.  However, for all that, there is a definite sense of admiration displayed.  

I don't see what the problem with #17 is other than its a routing nightmare to start on essentially the 18th tee, hit to the 17th green and then climb back to the tee.  The hole itself is fine, but perhaps unnecessary considering there are two other dramatic downhill par 3s on the course.  

I like the 18th, but wish it weren't the 18th.  There is no question the hole is severe and perhaps a bit off-putting.  I don't mind this sort of archie forced uncomfort level a handful of times in a round.  

For all of the talk, TR is not all that odd once one gets to know it a bit.  Its really a very strong mix of modern and classic - almost like the totals add up to 150% rather than 100%!  I couldn't take the course as a steady diet for a few reasons.  First, its a terrible walk.  Second, all the waste areas combined with soggy conditions really reduce the possiblity of a ground game.  Third, a game there takes too long.  However, I am glad the place was built because it really pushes the envelope and makes people ask why not?

Sorry to divert from the original thread, but I am struggling to understand its purpose.

Ciao

[Mike Hendren]

Before I started studying GCA, he was one of my favorite architects.

Pundits indeed pay a high price.  I wish I had never been to Sonoma County.  I really miss Ravenswood's Vintners Blend and hate paying the premium for their vineyard designates.  

Mike

[John_Cullum]

This has been an interesting thread. I have read at least a portion of every post except the first two

[Kyle Harris]

For what it's worth, this argument has taken place many times on this site and though I may be redundant, I can't resist asking the same question that always comes to mind: why isn't there a discussion board and web site devoted to celebrating the works of Mssrs. Fazio and the other followers of the Framing School of Design?

Surely if the work is as strong as advertised, there must be much to discuss and celebrate?

Those people are probably all too busy actually playing the game.

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