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Mike_Young

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ANGC......it has begun
« on: November 15, 2007, 08:53:04 PM »
#1 TEE HAS 10 YARDS ADDED TO THE FRONT......

Fan-friendly changes made at Augusta National

By STAN AWTREY
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 10/02/07
Several changes have been made at the Augusta National Golf Club, some that will be noticed by the competitors at the 2008 Masters and others that will be more appreciated by the spectators.

Four holes were changed, although none of the alterations will affect the length of the course.

Ten yards were added to the front of the tee at No. 1, giving officials more flexibility in the event of a strong headwind. The back of the tee was reduced to ease the flow of spectator traffic. The hole will still play 455 yards.

The greens at No. 7 and No. 9 were changed for agronomic reasons. Six feet were added to No. 7, which could produce two or three new pin placements. Changes at No. 9 will ensure softer pin placements on the right side's first and middle tiers.

Several trees were removed at No. 11 to improve viewing for the galleries.

"Refinements to the golf course and grounds have been made almost every year since the tournament's inception and this year was no exception," Augusta National chairman Billy Payne said in a release. "Overall, we are happy with the golf course. We think last year's exceptionally high scores were an anomaly due to the frigid, windy weather."

Additional seating for 2,000 has been added on the hillside, to the left of the pond, at the dramatic par-3 16th. The new seats also allow views of the No. 6 green, the second shot and putts at No. 15, the green at No. 16 and the tee shot and approach at No. 17.

The back entrance has also been renovated and provides easy access to No. 16, the No. 5 fairway, as well as Amen Corner.

"We are very excited about these significant improvements for our patrons, and hope that we have made an already special experience even better," Payne said.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kalen Braley

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 08:56:05 PM »
Assuming the trees on 11 were removed from the right hand side, then that would be un-doing what the previous regime did a few years back.

Gary Daughters

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 09:18:59 AM »

Kalen,

I think we'll have to wait to learn how many trees "several" is.  And then wait until next year to see if this was the start of a trend.
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

BCrosby

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 09:48:55 AM »
As for the trees on the 11th, my understnding is that they are removing some of the trees farthest from the fw on the right to allow galleries a better view of second shots. Currently you can't see much through the trees.

They are not removing trees to widen the landing zone.

Bob

Kalen Braley

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 11:39:18 AM »
Well then,

I take it back...so much for the un-doing!!

Gary Daughters

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 12:39:10 PM »
It's not beyond the realm that viewer accessibility would be the excuse for rectifying a different problem.  The little pines that were added several years ago do impede visibility.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 12:54:14 PM by Gary Daughters »
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Joel_Stewart

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 12:46:20 PM »
Thats an old article from October 2nd.  Everything has been covered here before.   I'm more interested in the drought and could it effect ANGC?  If they have their own wells and/or water source probably not, at least this year.

Gary Daughters

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 01:10:07 PM »

Here's my take on the drought.

First golf.  People noticed because of East Lake.  What happened to East Lake is not happening to other courses, at least not in that extreme.  What happened at East Lake still seems a mystery.

In the bigger picture, elected officials in Georgia, primarily the governor, are tossing out dire scenarios to try to gain political leverage over the water in Lake Lanier.  It's a game of brinksmanship with Alabama and Florida that happens to gain headlines when the governor arbitrarily says a metropolis of 4+ million people will run out of drinking water in X number of days.

Yes, the drought it extreme.  Yes, the lakes are going dry.  Yes, everyone's taking fewer showers and their cars are dirty.  We deal with this situation every few years (it gets worse every cycle), and we continue to develop the suburbs and ex-urbs without end as our republican governor prays for rain.

ANGC will be just fine.
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 01:25:24 PM »
The Richmond County Water Authority understands the significance of The Masters for Richmond County, the City of Augusta and surrounds.

There are better things to worry about.

Bob


Dunlop_White

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 04:08:15 PM »
There were about 60 new pines to the right of #11 fairway. Though they have removed some, you cannot tell. I didn't count, but would guess there are about 50 still there.

Chris Cupit

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2007, 04:13:38 PM »

Here's my take on the drought.

First golf.  People noticed because of East Lake.  What happened to East Lake is not happening to other courses, at least not in that extreme.  What happened at East Lake still seems a mystery.

In the bigger picture, elected officials in Georgia, primarily the governor, are tossing out dire scenarios to try to gain political leverage over the water in Lake Lanier.  It's a game of brinksmanship with Alabama and Florida that happens to gain headlines when the governor arbitrarily says a metropolis of 4+ million people will run out of drinking water in X number of days.

Yes, the drought it extreme.  Yes, the lakes are going dry.  Yes, everyone's taking fewer showers and their cars are dirty.  We deal with this situation every few years (it gets worse every cycle), and we continue to develop the suburbs and ex-urbs without end as our republican governor prays for rain.

ANGC will be just fine.

Don't forget Gary, 'ole Sonny is a former Democrat turned Republican.  The first "Republican" Governor Georgia has seen since reconstruction in fact!  This drought is worse than in past years and the water situation will not just get better with rain.

There are huge issues to be dealt with that have been ignored for decades--Ignoring tough issues is not just a recent phenonmenon characteristic of the current loonies under the gold dome!!

PS  As you know, it did rain after the prayers ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 04:16:12 PM by Chris Cupit »

Matt_Ward

Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2007, 04:18:53 PM »
How Augusta remains among the top 10 courses in the nation astounds me given the clear desire to destroy the fundamental vision espoused by Jones & Mackenzie. No doubt modifications have been added by the wide fairways, no rough, clearly no tree invasion was at the heart of what made the course great.

The sad part is that this is one course that simply gets too many free passes.

I would hope that the new powers-that-be at August would undue much of the inane "improvements" that have been instituted. I guess we will need more Zach Johnson winners before the light goes off in someone's head.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2007, 04:54:22 PM »
Matt -

Brad Klein and his Golfweek raters apparently agree with you. They put ANGC at 11 or 12 after the last round of tree additions.

That new ranking is hard to argue with.

Bob


Tim Pitner

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2007, 04:54:43 PM »

I would hope that the new powers-that-be at August would undue much of the inane "improvements" that have been instituted. I guess we will need more Zach Johnson winners before the light goes off in someone's head.

As a Cedar Rapids, Iowa native, I resemble that remark.  

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2007, 06:04:29 PM »
Here in Utah being in the high desert,

A local city is trying to put in a seperate water system that would pipe re-claimed water to residences.  It would be used for watering lawns, washing cars, etc and they figured it could reduce normal water use by up to 40%.  Makes sense I think.

Gary Daughters

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Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2007, 09:20:25 PM »

Chris,

I'd bet quite a lot that your take on the drought and the long-term problems is more nuanced than mine.  What say you?
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2007, 01:18:09 AM »

Chris,

I'd bet quite a lot that your take on the drought and the long-term problems is more nuanced than mine.  What say you?

Maybe just more selfish :D

Seriously though, water issues will not go away and it is possible that if golf and the golf industry do not take on a very proactive role in getting our "story" out re: ecological benefits, green space benefits, economic impact and BMPs of our industry (particularly compared to other industries), politicaly golf could be in for a "world of hurt".

By the way, aside from the mining industry in Ga (which followed our lead), NO other industry in the state has been as proactive as golf.  We have submitted Best Management Practices voluntarily to the EPD that demonstrate what good stewards and managers of waters our industry really is.  About 3 years ago, we promised the EPD that we would get at least 75% of all GGCSA supers "certified" in a codified set of BMPs by this year and prior to the re-writing of the water rules for the state coming up in January.  This summer the GGCSA presented their list with a 91% completion rate!

 For golf to survive and for our generation to have a game we can pass on to our kids, golf must remain economically viable at a level other than the high end private clubs.  Moving toward a "pay for water" model (even re-claimed water) could destroy many business models for golf in the SE where we have always taken water for granted.

In one of our meetings trying to get the sense of urgency out to the nearly 370 clubs and 80,000 GSGA members in our state, someone asked when would the average person realize there is a water crisis in this state.  The answer was:  "When they turn the faucet and nothing comes out!" :o

Oh well, our politicians will save us I'm sure!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2007, 02:18:29 AM »
Matt Ward,
Ask 100 golfers picked at randomwhat course they would like to play most in America and I'd guess 90 would put Augusta national first.
To me that's the definition of a top 10 course (if not a top 1 course)
Do I like all the current changes, particularly involving the trees?--no , but change is the history at Augusta.

Are there better courses that don't get the press of Augusta?probably, but the bashing Augusta gets here undermines the credibility of this site.
people forget founder Bobby Jones was alive and active when most of the most significant changes were made which differ greatly from the oroginal design.

Glad to hear some trees are coming down at 11 .


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt_Ward

Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2007, 11:10:40 AM »
Jeff Warne:

When did what the "average golfer" matter on a site devoted to architectural greatness ?

If you use that standard then McDonald's offers cuisine food because of the sheer number of people who walk through their doors. Ditto Starbucks or any other mass preferred eating / drinking establishment.

The people on this site -- unless they all decided to take a walk -- want to see the original elements enhanced -- but not thrown out the window.

The people who pick ANGC do so because of THE MASTERS and the history tied to it. They don't know squat about its real genesis and what the wide fairways, no rough, limited tree invasion really mean. My God man -- wake up please. The average person possesses the same level of intelligence you see highlighted when Leno does his Jay-walking bit.

The "credibility" of this site is not advanced when sacred cows are protected because of the status name of the place involved. Check out the aerial shots of ANGC -- both prior to and now after the fact -- on what bastardization has taken place on holes like #1, #7, #11, #15, to name just a few.

By the way -- for what it's worth check out the comments from Nicklaus and Palmer on the subject. Who the hell are they and what do they know about how Augusta was meant to play and what's offered there now.

The changes you referred to post Bobby Jones at least maintained the core principles I originall outlined. It did not mean the whole sale abandonment and the institution of such inane things -- as the tree forest to the right of #11, the "second cut" and the absurd penchant for even more distance.

The joy in seeing #15 play to its risk and reward philosophy is now tied to the more riveting aspect of the 7-iron lay-up followed by the edge-of-your-seat PW / SW from 90 yards.

Geeze, I always watch from the edge of my TV viewing seat when such action is flashed across the screen!

Jeff -- wake up my good man -- change is not the issue -- the real question is do the moves reflect IMPROVEMENT. The answer in my book no way.

Tim P:

By the way check out the TV ratings when such superstar players win major events. Zach Johnson is a fine golfer and I salute his win -- but I can tell you this -- have more wins from Johnsons and his ilk and The Masters becomes more like Quad Cities than a major in my book.

Bob C:

The drop in Golfweek reflects movement and should be applauded but the course still gets way toooooo much praise -- more tied to its superb past than to the recent changes that have only eliminated for me and others the pure joy the place used to demonstrate year after year.

Bump ANGC down to the 30-40 range and then a real sense of perspective will be on hand.

CHrisB

Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2007, 12:06:44 PM »
When did what the "average golfer" matter on a site devoted to architectural greatness ?

If you use that standard then McDonald's offers cuisine food because of the sheer number of people who walk through their doors. Ditto Starbucks or any other mass preferred eating / drinking establishment.

Matt,
Dave Schmidt answers your question with his "Ted Robinson is a Great Architect" thread that went 11 pages and died out last week. You must have missed it.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31927

Ian Andrew

Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2007, 12:12:19 PM »
I had the opportunity to talk to Tom Marzoff a few years ago about the work there. I was under the impression that since Tom Fazio has consulted with Augusta National there has not been a single green that has not had some surgery.

Much of the course is still great but the constant alterations have left me flat. I'm now much more interested in other courses.

They "jumped the shark" when they established the 1% trough leading to the "hole in one" pin location on #16. They GPS in the pin each Sunday and "create" great theater.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 12:17:32 PM by Ian Andrew »

Mike_Cirba

Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2007, 01:24:57 PM »
I've been there and walked the property.   It's tremendous in many ways, and the scale and routing are fabulous, as are most of the greens.

However, even though it's probably the toughest golf course to secure an invite, I would flat out say that there are probably at least two dozen courses I'd prefer to play, simply because of the tree invasion.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2007, 01:25:49 PM by MPCirba »

Matt_Ward

Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2007, 04:23:28 PM »
What I always wondered with Augusta was how the philosophy of if it's not broke there's no need to fix it has been turned completely on its head because a few of the key people there got all bent out of shape with scores being posted by certain players (e.g. Woods, Mickelson, et al) and that some of these same players were hitting particular clubs (Lefty's PW into #11, Tiger's PW into #15, etc, etc).

Big freakin deal !

Does one then throw the baby out with the bath oil ?

Augusta has long since abandoned its unique character and statement of architectural pedigree. Unfortunately, too many people confuse The Masters with the architectural elements that have been the core of such a previously superb layout.

I don't doubt for a NY second that many people would opt to play the place -- but Mike C is 10000% on target. I'd much rather personally play other courses because of their long standing desire to remain true to what they were originally intended to be.

Augusta, for me at least, has become the baseball equivalent of Barry Bonds. In my mind, since the course wasn't broker the need to remedy it with the solutions that have come forward just make me wince and relish the tournaments from years ago.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2007, 05:32:09 PM »
Matt -

ANGC raises pretty starkly the problems that the new length poses  for classic courses.

You've go three interrelated concepts that have led to the egregious changes at ANGC.

Start with the notion the main goal of The Masters and the USGA is that winning scores be at or around par.

If that is the goal, they've got two problems to overcome.

(1) New technology.

(2) Classic architecture.

You can't have winnng scores around par unless you you do something about either (1) or (2).

The USGA is unwilling to do something about (1).

So we are left to solve the problem by doing something about (2). You mangle classic architecture.

But there is another alternative. It's not even an original idea. In fact it is the principle the R&A operates under.

You give up the notion that winning scores need to be around par. Make that  change and there is zero reason to make the changes they are making at ANGC and many other classic courses.

I have yet to hear a decent explanation for why keeping winning scores at par is important. They all seem to boil down to the fact free view that tournaments with low winning scores are less exciting or that they humiliate the course or some such silliness.

Bob

Brent Hutto

Re:ANGC......it has begun
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2007, 06:37:33 PM »
I have yet to hear a decent explanation for why keeping winning scores at par is important. They all seem to boil down to the fact free view that tournaments with low winning scores are less exciting or that they humiliate the course or some such silliness.

I think it's circular reasoning. Major championships have historically been contested on setups that produce winning scores in the -6 to +3 range, or something similar. So it is an obvious although IMO incorrect logical jump to the belief that such scoring is fundamental to their nature as major championships.

It's akin to noticing that a lot of really gorgeous-looking women are skinny. So every woman in the country wants to lose weight until they are skinny, whether they are gorgeous or not. ANGC has a "natural, healthy weight" that would probably result in winning scores of 10-15 under par on years with benign weather. She is not made more beautiful by engaging in the moral equivalent of anorexia nervousa.

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