Why does the D.A. bunker at Pine Valley get a free pass?

[CHrisB]

Playing D.A. (devil's advocate) on the D.A. (devil's you-know-what) at PVGC #10...

Here's a hazard that is so small and so deep, that all but the very skilled and very lucky won't be able to escape from it at all, and will have to pick up or hit another from the tee. It's effective penalty is harsher than a small pond with red or yellow stakes around it, and practically rises to the equivalent of a small area of internal OB with white stakes around it.

The idea of a small, nearly unplayable greenside area seems to run counter to a lot of the favored architectural principles celebrated here (the most basic of which seems to be that you should be able to hole out with your original ball without having to touch it).

If someone copied it exactly to a modern course (has this been tried anywhere?), I'm sure many would roundly criticize the copy, but I can't remember ever reading any serious criticism of the original anywhere, whether in this discussion group or elsewhere. Everyone seems to love the D.A... We even had one prominent poster here who loved it so much, he tried to hit it into the bunker on his first play (heck of a shot, by the way--very small target).

So why all the praise for a feature that seems to run counter to what many here would favor and that almost no one would dare copy elsewhere?

In another thread there was talk of holes that people may be predisposed to love because they are famous holes or lie on famous or world-class courses, even though they have features that almost no one would dare copy exactly elsewhere (Road Hole at TOC, Dell Hole at Lahinch, 12th at ANGC, etc.).

Does the D.A. bunker rise above criticism because it is so unique and so famous?

What would Mackenzie say about the D.A.? Does anyone know if he ever saw it (can't remember what year the D.A. was added to the hole)? Has there in fact been any serious criticism of the D.A.?

Don't get me wrong--I love it too and every time (every time) I have played the hole I have walked past it and looked down in there in amazement. It is a truly awesome hazard. And I still have this memory of watching Michael Kelley from Ohio trying to escape from it in the Crump Cup final a couple of years ago as the spectators stood above him and gave him sympathetic applause for even attempting to play the shot. I'm sure there are plenty of other D.A. stories out there.

[JESII]

The short answer to your question is that many on here think actually keeping score for the round is beyond necessary...sort of diffuses the anti-DA argument...

As for me...never thought too much along the lines you are asking, but I guess it goes back to my feelings about fairness being unnecessary on the golf course. I've only been in there when I was caddying and just went down to take a look...never tried a shot out.

[wsmorrison]

Chris,

The DA was not there in the beginning.  I'm not sure if anyone knows when exactly it was put in or by whom.  Could it have collapsed and appeared on its own?  It dominates the hole, that's for sure.  It has entered into the mindsets of golfers everywhere.
 
All the folks that go to the Crump on the final day want to see the DA.  That's what they talk about on the bus from the amusement park parking lot and that's what they make sure they see when they're walking the grounds.  When they get there, many can't help getting in it and imagining themselves playing out of it.  I think it is a wonderful part of the golf course and of golf in general.

[cary lichtenstein]

Not good design but has so much history it must remain

[CHrisB]

The short answer to your question is that many on here think actually keeping score for the round is beyond necessary...sort of diffuses the anti-DA argument...

As for me...never thought too much along the lines you are asking, but I guess it goes back to my feelings about fairness being unnecessary on the golf course. I've only been in there when I was caddying and just went down to take a look...never tried a shot out.

JES II,
Of course I share your view about fairness and golf.

On your first point, that scorekeeping-is-unnecessary viewpoint hasn't stopped the criticism of other holes and features (holes like the 14th at Bandon Trails and the 2nd at Erin Hills, trees in the line of play, internal OB, forced carries, lack of width/strategy/angles, etc.). There has been far more criticism of far lesser threats to the scorecard.

[JESII]

I agree...the two-faced, hypocritical scoundrels need to be stopped!

[CHrisB]

I agree...the two-faced, hypocritical scoundrels need to be stopped!

Count me in as one of them!

[CHrisB]

Rules question--suppose you hit it into the D.A., take a couple of swipes, and are still in there (now probably in your own blast-mark or footprints). Is there any relief option at that point or do you have to keep going until you get it out?

[Dan Boerger]

 Does anyone recall if the area was ever so shaved down that it was possible to putt into the DA with the pin front right and the player putting down to it? I seem to recall enough grass that this won't happen anymore.

[archie_struthers]

 


The DA unfair?....absolutely....and fabulous

You can get out, depending on the lie, or in  stroke play competition...reload from the tee. Your choice!

Quirk is good, the older and smarter I get LOL the more it becomes a certainly.

[KBanks]

I am glad the DA exists, just as I am glad Road and Hell bunkers exist.

My Dad, who has two artificial knees, hit his tee shot into the DA. Fearful he would never climb out, I wouldn't let him enter the bunker. I'll never forget our host calling Dad's tee shot shortly after it left the clubface: "That's in the ***hole!"

He said it with such relish!

Ken

[JESII]

Archie,

Could a ball be putted into the DA in your early days?

I think Mucci has said he remembers that possibility, but that may well have been while the course was under construction...

[Bob_Huntley]

Chris,

I can imagine having a complaint about a bunkers severity on a hole of some length but the tenth hole is what, no more than 145 yards to the center of the green?

Take sufficient club and put it over the back if necessary.

As my dear departed mother would say " Robert, life (substitute golf here) is inherently unfair. Get used to it"

I am not sure if you have played Royal Lytham and St. Annes but they have got a half a dozen bunkers that would qualify as cousins of PV's DA. I don't hear much complaint from their members.


Bob

[Rick Shefchik]

I can't figure out why there aren't more D.A.s. I've thought for years that U.S. courses need more strategically placed pot bunkers, and fewer expansive, takes-three-minutes-to-rake-up-after-yourself beaches.

[Joel_Stewart]

I've played there a number of times and have never seen anyone come close to hitting their ball into it.

I agree with Archie and Bob on this.  Its so penal and quirky you have to give it a pass.

[Dan Herrmann]

I can't figure out why there aren't more D.A.s. I've thought for years that U.S. courses need more strategically placed pot bunkers, and fewer expansive, takes-three-minutes-to-rake-up-after-yourself beaches.

Rob,
Gil Hanse built a couple of these at French Creek, and, interestingly, they're located close to a big bunker.  Some folks don't even know they're there.  I think they're really wonderful examples of quirk that works.

[TEPaul]

"So why all the praise for a feature that seems to run counter to what many here would favor and that almost no one would dare copy elsewhere?"

Chris:

I think you basically answered the question with another one on your initial post.

The DA is not criticized because it's so famous and it may be famous primarily because it's so unique including it's name. I doubt the bunker would be one quarter as famous if it wasn't for its name.

And yes there was a time when the grass around it was kept shorter and it was possible to putt a ball into it.

[archie_struthers]

 

Yes it could and it was way cool!  If the greens were at today's speed it would have been absolutely terrifying, in that the putts would catch the ridge on the right front and accelerate into the  DA    ..

  We could never exactly pin down the date it was done on our previous discussion I thought Craig Reinhardt and Eb did it in the late 70's ...I believe Pat thought it much earlier .. but he can respond... I didnt loop there until 1975-76 soooooooooooooo!
Really miss John Ott for clarity on this one.

[Philippe Binette]

Why, because it can be avoived

Is it more severe than 17th at sawgrass

the point is:

if the pin is in the front and you're going for it, you better be good (or stupid) and be willing to pay the price. If you're not willing to pay the price, than hit it at the back of the green....

if you come to me and say: well I'm not good enough to control my short iron that much, than I'd say what needs to be said to most north american golfers that complain that any hazard on any courses is too tough: learn to play golf for god's sake... the thing is people in north america learn to hit the ball, learn to chip, learn to putt but don't learn the most important: to play golf

[JESII]

Philippe,

Are there any areas of North America immune to this plague? I can make preparations to move on very short notice, the wife and kids will understand...

[Dan Kelly]

people in north america learn to hit the ball, learn to chip, learn to putt but don't learn the most important: to play golf

Some continents are good at some things; other continents are good at others.

[Philippe Binette]

hey i'm from north america

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan
I logged in just to give a   to that. Sorry for using the emoticon; it's the only way I could express how I feel. I usually just wave my hands around wildly, you know, being Italian and all

P

Philippe - I'm almost sure Dan hadn't taken any offence. I think he just wanted an excuse to use a semi colon

[Dan Kelly]

Philippe - I'm almost sure Dan hadn't taken any offence. I think he just wanted an excuse to use a semi colon

Me? Take offense? Sacre bleu!

(As for semicolons: Once upon a time, when I was a magazine editor, I was editing a manuscript written by a wonderful essayist named Dick Coffey, who was the owner/editor of the Pine County Courier, a weekly newspaper here in a mostly rural part of east-central Minnesota. In a couple of spots, or maybe more than a couple, I'd inserted semicolons where they belonged. [He had used periods, I suppose, or maybe commas. (Brackets inside apostrophes! Be still, my heart!)] Dick took note of the new punctuation, and complimented me -- explaining that he'd gotten out of the habit of using semicolons. Seems that the residents of Pine County didn't understand the semicolon -- and gave him grief whenever he used one!)

You just keep waving those hands wildly, Peter. That's what you're good at!

[Joe Hancock]

You just keep waving those hands wildly, Peter. That's what you're good at!

It's times like this that I'm thankful for your nearly flawless sentence structure!

Joe