Since Tom Doak hasn't played...

[Bart Bradley]

Banff Springs golf course....

TD from an earlier thread:  "Since I haven't been to Banff and Jasper, probably the highest-rated "mountain courses" in The Confidential Guide were Cape Breton Highlands (though I never would have thought that was a mountain course until it was named above) and the Upper Cascades at The Homestead ... they got 7's or maybe an 8 on the Doak scale."

I thought I'd post my pictures from last summers trip to Banff.  I suspect if Tom were to visit, Banff might qualify for a Doak 8 or 9.  Wouldn't this make it then, the top rated mountain course in the world under his system...What do you think???

Tom, this place is worth the trip...It sort of bogles my mind that I have played here and you haven't...probably the only such great golf courses where this is true.

[wsmorrison]

How would our current crop of architects, if they were surveying the site in a raw state, design a par 3hole in this location?  Surely the bunkering would differ (I am not too fond of it as presented--too far from the green and too many unattractive bunkers all around).  The green position might differ as well (closer to the pond if it doesn't flood--though I would think the spring thaw would be make things very wet in such a location with all the runoff from the mountain behind).  

[Bill Brightly]

Now THAT is where spruce trees belong!

Nice pictures, thanks for posting!

[Kalen Braley]

Bart,

Undoubtedly Banff is an amazing course in a super setting...but is it mountain golf?

All the pics I've seen of the place would indicate the course plays in a big valley that is "next" to the mountains and is for the most part flat.  

I would define mountain golf more as interfacing with the actual mountain and traversing up and over the landscape as opposed to just having it as a backdrop, albiet a spectacular one.

[George Pazin]

Great photos, thanks for sharing them.

Photos of Banff always intrigue me. To me, it doesn't look much like a mountain course, but a course in a mountain setting. Is there much play up or down the mountains? That's where mountain courses tend to get goofy, in my limited experience.

[George Pazin]

Pretty spooky simultaneous posts by Kalen and me - he should be scared.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Banff is indeed played in a valley next to mountains for the most part.

What I found coolest about it is that it was very kid-friendly.



That's my son Joseph... man he's a lot bigger now... sniff....

 

[Garland Bayley]

Did Tom make his trip to Jasper and Banff? I know he was trying to schedule it and find out if the courses would be playable for the dates he had in mind, which would have definitely been shoulder season.

[Kalen Braley]

Pretty spooky simultaneous posts by Kalen and me - he should be scared.

 

I'm very scared....it means I may have actually said something intelligent.  I need to document this so my wife knows that I have intelligence...at least some of the time.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Bart,
I think you are a little high with the scores -- especially when you start from the wrong tees. (the old first tee'd off from the elevated tee - and finished at the hotel)  I'd guess his numbers as 6-7 depending on where you tee off from -- I thought it was great -- a 7 is great.

The greens aren't what they used to be -- although that's not what they say.  The old photos of the bunkering was better too.

Did you get to Jasper? -- you'd be way up on Tom if you did.

Cheers...

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,
I think you are a little high with the scores -- especially when you start from the wrong tees. (the old first tee'd off from the elevated tee - and finished at the hotel)  I'd guess his numbers as 6-7 depending on where you tee off from -- I thought it was great -- a 7 is great.

The greens aren't what they used to be -- although that's not what they say.  The old photos of the bunkering was better too.

Did you get to Jasper? -- you'd be way up on Tom if you did.

Cheers...

Yes, I really enjoyed Jasper and in fact posted a couple of photos last week under the thread "another course that gets little attention"

Bart

[CHrisB]

Regarding the size of the Devil's Cauldron green--does anyone familiar with the history of the course
know if the green was always this size, or did it originally extend all the way to the bunker edges?

I played it 20 years ago and can't remember exactly how it played then (only that it was as good as advertised).

[SPDB]

David Stamm posted a pretty good old picture a few weeks back. The green went up to a bulkhead in front of the pond. Perhaps he can repost it (the url to the original is dead)

[Adam Clayman]

Kalen, Mountain golf is not limited to your definition. Considering when the older Mtn courses were built, the cartball mentality wasn't pervasive. Being able to walk a round in those settings is the treat.

While the shapes of the cauldron bunkers may not be exact, Thompson principles are clearly evident and are repeated throughout the course.

Im no Scale giver, but if Mike Nuzzo says it's a 7, Jasper would then be higher at an 8?

[Robert Thompson]

While I think Jasper rivals Highlands as one of the great golf experiences in Canada, I think Banff is likely the better of the two Alberta courses. But the problems are many. The bunkers are a disaster -- in dire need of a facelift and about six inches of sand removed from them (a man could lose his shoe!). The rerouted course really takes away from the experience, and though it isn't exactly part of the course, the existing clubhouse is gawd awful.

And while the mountains present incredible vistas, Banff is relatively flat in comparison to Jasper, which skirts the mountain edges and even wanders into them in spots.

In regards to the Cauldron, the green has been changed and has always had difficulty growing grass given the lack of light from the nearby mountain. The tee shot is also changed -- it used to be lower and down to the right. You can still walk down and see it -- the bunkers flank the green from that angle.

I'd be guessing Jasper is a 7 for Doak and a restored Banff would be an 8.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I thought I was no scale giver either, but I'll say that if one were to play Banff with the Clayman - it gets an extra point every time.

Adam did we play the old routing together?
I did have more fun at Jasper, but the scenery at Banff is unforgetable.

I'm more in alignment with Robert regarding points...

[Steve Verde]

Bart great pics

I was fortunate enough to play Banff and I can't think of a more enjoyable place to play golf. Great golf course in an even better setting. I've never played Jasper but I've always thought Banff is more appealing than the pictures of Jasper. That whole region is great and is ignored by the average golfer. This side of the Monterey Peninsula, I can't think of a better setting for a collection of public or resort golf courses. Kananaskis is very good and one of the best bargains anywhere and I also enjoyed Stewart Creek and Silvertip. I know Silvertip isn't universally loved around here and I realize that is completely over-the-top but if you don't go into your round looking to analyze the course you would enjoy it.

[Robert Thompson]

I think Stewart Creek is 17 pretty good golf holes. Silver Tip, on the other hand, well, it is the best course of its kind.

[Brad Swanson]

Highlands Links, Jasper, and Banff are #1, 2, and 3 on my current wish list.  Thanks for the pictures.  They are feeding my appetite.

Cheers,
Brad

[Adam Clayman]

There's no doubt both courses are very close when held uo to each other. In a famous Match Play show down, Canada's own Ben Dewar totally missed the city of Calgary as we drove by it still debating the merits of each.

I felt Jasper better because of the variety found in the journey Thompson took us on. He used the real land as best he could, which accentuated the freedom and the mysteries. Two keys for me.

Banff Springs relied heavily on constructed surface features to create the interest.

Robert did pull an unfair one there. He rated an improved version of whats currently available for critique.  
With the Fairmont group leading the way, I seriously doubt they have a clue of how to fix what they have wrought.

[John Kirk]

How would our current crop of architects, if they were surveying the site in a raw state, design a par 3hole in this location?  Surely the bunkering would differ (I am not too fond of it as presented--too far from the green and too many unattractive bunkers all around).  The green position might differ as well (closer to the pond if it doesn't flood--though I would think the spring thaw would be make things very wet in such a location with all the runoff from the mountain behind).  

Hello Wayne,

I had a slightly different reaction to this photo.  Like you, this photo jumped out at me.

Here I see something quite unusual looking, but functionally very sound.  Miss by a little, chip or pitch from the rough.  Miss by more, and you have a good chance to be facing a medium length bunker shot.  Push your tee shot to a back pin (or misjudge the downhill), and you could be in that back right bunker.  That looks like a very tough up and down.

Anyway, I saw the photo, said "Gee, that's very unusual, then decided that the hole appeared to mete out fair penalties for missed shots.

[Robert Thompson]

The actual old tees are near the trees on the right in the photo.

And as for properly restoring Banff, I suspect Adam is correct -- it'll likely never happen. Fairmont has a great, legendary course with a remarkable hotel and have no idea what to do with it. Now that a Saudi prince owns the whole place, it won't get better any time soon.

[Dan Smoot]

I have a confession that many here will not believe.  I have stood next to the Jasper and Banff courses on two different occasions without playing either one.

What sacrifice one will do for a family vacation with the daughters and a 25th Anniversary trip with the wife.  My wife even encouraged me to play on one of those trips.  I plead insanity.  However, people who never visit this part of the world are really missing something.  My favorite = Mt. Edith Cavell

[Tom_Doak]

Bart:  Hey, don't rub it in.

I was actually scheduled to go to Banff and Jasper this spring, had it all set up, but the day before I was supposed to leave my wife's stepdad passed away and I had to cancel.  I guess it was 45 and rainy the whole time I would have been there anyway.

I hope to go next year when I am up in the vicinity of Rock Creek.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart:  Hey, don't rub it in.

I was actually scheduled to go to Banff and Jasper this spring, had it all set up, but the day before I was supposed to leave my wife's stepdad passed away and I had to cancel.  I guess it was 45 and rainy the whole time I would have been there anyway.

I hope to go next year when I am up in the vicinity of Rock Creek.

Tom, when it comes to great golf and golf courses I only have this small morsel to laud over you....although the circumstances of your latest cancellation deserve only my deepest regrets.  I know you will enjoy both Banff and Jasper ...I only wish I could go back with you.  Will you post your evaluations of the courses after you play?  I look forward to it.

Bart