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TEPaul

Re:Are there established guidelines/principles for superior architecture?
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2007, 11:14:37 AM »
Ted:

Interesting post there---good post.

You've been reading Max Behr again under the blanket after your lights were supposed to be off, haven't you?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 11:15:05 AM by TEPaul »

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there established guidelines/principles for superior architecture?
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2007, 11:16:07 AM »
Ted:

Interesting post there---good post.

You've been reading Max Behr again under the blanket after your lights were supposed to be off, haven't you?

No, unfortunately I haven't been.
I think it has more to do with what I might have inhaled during the college years . . .

-Ted

BCrosby

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Re:Are there established guidelines/principles for superior architecture?
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2007, 11:39:36 AM »
Bob
but then it follows that great architects have come up with the necessary and sufficient conditions, as manifested on the ground. Have any of them formulated those as principles, and written them down someplace? Or does it simply not work that way?

Peter

Peter -

It's not the job of an architect to tell you what he does. In fact, when most try they are pretty bad at it. Their job is just to do it.

Consider what makes for a great sentence.

First, there are necessary conditions that a great sentence must satisfy. It must be grammatical, punctuated, in a public language (English, French, etc.) and so forth.

If I knew what more than that I have to do to write a great sentence, I would use those sufficient conditions as my guide, write a book full of such sentences, win a Nobel Prize or two, retire to Charlottesville, raise horses and become a perfectly awful curmudgeon. Just like William Faulkner.

But that bright future does not await me because, while I know how to write sentences that satsfy all the necessary conditions, I have neither the talent nor the knowledge to go beyond that to satisfy the conditions sufficient for a great sentence.

All of which suggests to me that necessary condtions may be knowable, but sufficient conditions probably aren't. At least not in creative endeavours like gca.

Bob
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 11:48:54 AM by BCrosby »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Are there established guidelines/principles for superior architecture?
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2007, 11:59:38 AM »
Bob, thanks - good post there; very well written :)

I think you're probably right that sufficient conditions probably aren't knowable in creative endeavours like gca, but we seem to agree that they are DOABLE.  And my 'bias' is to think that the doable is always based on a 'knowledge' of fundamental principles, even if that knowledge happens to be unconscious or instinctual or the fruit of the gods, simply flowing through the appropriate human channel. I think it was Stravinsky who, when asked where his greatest music came from, said something like: "I don't know if it comes from the subconscious or the supra-conscious, but I know for certain that it doesn't come from self-consciouness".  

Peter


BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are there established guidelines/principles for superior architecture?
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2007, 12:15:33 PM »
Peter -

Stravinsky was a smart guy. (Have you ever read Robert Craft on him?)

Seems to me that great golf courses, great sentences, great anything, redfine what is possible. So by definition they aren't going to be reducible to a set of universal precepts.  

In particular, notions from sentential logic like necessary and sufficient conditions aren't very good frameworks for getting at such creative questions.

Bob

Peter Pallotta

Re:Are there established guidelines/principles for superior architecture?
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2007, 12:28:27 PM »
"Seems to me that great golf courses, great sentences, great anything, redfine what is possible. So by definition they aren't going to be reducible to a set of universal precepts."

Bob - I think this is where we disagree, but I'm not sure about any of this. I'd argue that great golf courses etc are able to redefine what is possible not in spite of universal precepts but because of them.  At least, that's been my own working assumption, for better or worse, in trying to master of couple of artistic areas of my own...

A very poor anology, another musical one - the line from Charlie Parker about what you need to do to improvise on a tune: "Memorize the changes (i.e. the chord progression) and then forget them."  In other words, internalize the 'principles' of the song, so as to free yourself to create.

Peter  

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