[Garland Bayley]

John,

I was trying to show my eyes weren't as crappy as you said. They turned out to be only 1/3 as crappy as you said as I missed seeing the bridge between 12 and 13, but I saw the two bridges on the front nine.

[John Kavanaugh]

No one cares.  The course is an easy walk..get over it.  I would love for anyone to name a modern course that was more masterfully routed.  I have not seen one myself.

[Garland Bayley]

How much dirt was moved to create the course? This wasn't Fazio in his minimalist period was it?

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,

You or anyone else are welcome to look at the before pictures of each hole in the clubhouse.  You have proven to me through your ignorance on the Erin Hills series that you have zero concept of how much dirt is a lot of dirt.  Please let this thread go until you have seen the course.  My offer stands to host you even though I am leaning towards paying someone else to watch you shoot 130 and listen to your comments.  You really need to learn when to shut the hell up.  I have been asked to resume the Erin Hills series and for the good of the board I will.  Please do not make that as difficult as you make everything else.  Post when you have something to contribute.

[David Wigler]

Having played VN a number of times, I can state with comfort that it is a very simple walk.  Fazio did a masterful job of routing his cart paths well out of lines of play and site and then building creative walking paths that make it frankly an easier course to walk than to ride.  John speaks of VN's excellence in routing.  I would venture to guess that there are less than five courses in the US that take up as much acreage as VN and are still as comfortable to walk around.

I agree that this course can be a ball buster but can also be navigated, if you do not feel the need to attack at all points.  I know Terry desperately wanted a US Open and unfortunately I do not see how the logistics of Evansville nor the ability to move people around the golf course could support that.  If you look at all of the water, you can see that this was not an easy course to figure out and I am in agreement with many that this is in the top five Fazio has ever done and deserves every national accolade that it gets.

[George Pazin]

I would love for anyone to name a modern course that was more masterfully routed.  I have not seen one myself.

An interesting and bold statement. The aerial certainly makes it look like one of the most challenging routings ever. To build a walkable course within the constraints of all that water looks daunting, to say the least.

With a tree removal program having been enacted, does that mean you can see other holes easily?

Also, can someone provide a quick listing of the pars of the holes, or point me to a scorecard?

Evaluating routing has to be one of the more difficult things to do, at least for me anyway. It pretty much boils down to, Is it easily walkable while yielding an interesting variety of shots/holes? Beyond that, I don't think I'm capable of discerning much.

I thought Applebrook looked like one of the most interesting routings I've seen for a modern course (it wasn't open for play when we walked it). The only other modern course who's routing I loved was The Rawls Course. Most other modern courses tend to have too much isolation for my tastes, though that is obviously a personal bias, not an objective standard.

[John Kavanaugh]

George,

I hope I am not insulting your itelligence by directing you to www.victorianational.com where you will find the information you requested.  I am sure you are aware there is nary a golf course left without a website that can easily be found through a Google search.

btw..The tree removal did open up some breathable vistas which are nice reminders who else is not playing that day.

[George Pazin]

Thanks.

Rebuke noted, I apologize for my laziness. It's been experience that most private clubs require a member password for access, hence my laziness.

 

* John, I must be even dumber than you feared, as I couldn't find any info on the public side of the site. I did find some info in the course profile on this site, however.

Golfclubatlas profile on Victorial National, for anyone interested

[Garland Bayley]

...You have proven to me through your ignorance on the Erin Hills series that you have zero concept of how much dirt is a lot of dirt. ...

It should be noted that at no point did I make any statement about a quantity of dirt moved at Erin Hills. John's statement above then would be a Fallacy as the website Kalen suggested be a prerequisite for posting here would point out.

[John Kavanaugh]

...You have proven to me through your ignorance on the Erin Hills series that you have zero concept of how much dirt is a lot of dirt. ...

It should be noted that at no point did I make any statement about a quantity of dirt moved at Erin Hills. John's statement above then would be a Fallacy as the website Kalen suggested be a prerequisite for posting here would point out.

Garland,

You mentioned a pan and it wasn't Peter.  Don't you recall your fantasy speculation about removing the blindness on the Dell with a simple shave of the hill?  When I approximated the dirt at 45,000 cu yds you said it could be done easily with a pan.  If you are going to continue to be ignorant please at least try to be entertaining.  I personally would recommend only commenting on courses you have seen or plan to see in the near future.

[Peter Pallotta]

John
a question from someone who does not have a home club/course, so doesn't know what playing a course constantly would be like:

Obviously VN pleases and satisfies you very much, but is that partly a function of the fact that it is a very good 'home course'?  (I'm not even sure what that term means, really).

Does VN satisfy ALL your golfing needs? I think you've mentioned that you're a member of several clubs - is that for reasons other than purely golf-related ones?

Is there anything lacking at VN for you? Could you play it alone (I don't mean by yourself, I mean you could only play VN) and be satisfied?

Thanks
Peter

[Garland Bayley]

...
You mentioned a pan and it wasn't Peter.  Don't you recall your fantasy speculation about removing the blindness on the Dell with a simple shave of the hill?  When I approximated the dirt at 45,000 cu yds you said it could be done easily with a pan.  If you are going to continue to be ignorant please at least try to be entertaining.  I personally would recommend only commenting on courses you have seen or plan to see in the near future.

I am not an expert on Fallacies, but from the website, I suppose this could be Fallacy of presupposition that you are using here, since it uses things that are "untrue or not yet established".

[John Kavanaugh]

John
a question from someone who does not have a home club/course, so doesn't know what playing a course constantly would be like:

Obviously VN pleases and satisfies you very much, but is that partly a function of the fact that it is a very good 'home course'?  (I'm not even sure what that term means, really).

Does VN satisfy ALL your golfing needs? I think you've mentioned that you're a member of several clubs - is that for reasons other than purely golf-related ones?

Is there anything lacking at VN for you? Could you play it alone (I don't mean by yourself, I mean you could only play VN) and be satisfied?

Thanks
Peter

Peter,

I live 71 miles from Victoria National which partly explains why I am a member of other clubs.  If I was forced to be a member of only one club where I am currently a member VN would be the choice for me because it does fit my weekend needs best.  I actually prefer living so far away because my wife understands that playing is all day and often includes overnight stays.  When I play closer to home she expects me back a little early for my tastes and even has the audacity to occasionally request errands on my way home.

A strange factor that is rare and great if you can get it is being one of the early members of a new club where everyone is your equal.  There is not one member at Victoria National who perceives their worth to be greater than anyone elses.  That is a great treat.  There is not a single member who would not ask me to join them if they would see me alone on the range.  I can go any time any day of the week and get a game unannounced.  What else would I possibly want.  

Even this last Monday which was a holiday I observe, the caddymaster came in on his own time and got me a few carts so I could host 7 friends who also had the day off.  Like I have said before..when I was hospitalized I had one set of flowers in my room and it was from the staff.  The place is family...the good outweighs the bad and most of the bad makes us better in the long run.

[Glenn Spencer]

I couldn't care less if a course is easy to walk or not, but Victoria most definitely seemed like a breeze to me. 5 and 16 play nothing alike to me. 5 is the way more difficult shot, but 16 has a lot more trouble and seems more difficult to the eye. 5 isn't intimidating like 16 is. It is a special place with a great atmosphere, I just barely preferred Crooked Stick, I think. It kills at least one course that is ranked ahead of it though.

[Dan Kelly]

A strange factor that is rare and great if you can get it is being one of the early members of a new club where everyone is your equal. There is not one member at Victoria National who perceives their worth to be greater than anyone elses.

I wonder if that would be true at new clubs on the coasts, or if this isn't partly a Heartland phenomenon.

[ward peyronnin]

I got to back John up. Not a bad walking course except from 9 to  10.

Eye candy yes but solid shot values too. 16 is over the top; 17 at TPC Sawgrass is 30 to 60 yards shorter and they treat the pros as if they were national heroes when we have  to play this one every day. I think it is way too penal and one dmensional but there are many great holes on this golf course. The more you play it the higher ur comfort level. It is a beautiful dramatic and intriguing place. i don't think dirt was  moved everywhere as the vegetation in place is too mature. the downside to doing rules at competitions is that you feel so isolated and even with trees gone this is still the case but that is just the way it is, the greens have rebounded well. It is a very satisfactory place.

[Mike Sweeney]

A strange factor that is rare and great if you can get it is being one of the early members of a new club where everyone is your equal. There is not one member at Victoria National who perceives their worth to be greater than anyone elses.

I wonder if that would be true at new clubs on the coasts, or if this isn't partly a Heartland phenomenon.

I would disagree with this as I believe it is driven by having one owner who loves the game more than by where you were born. I would nominate Roger Hanson at Hidden Creek for the East Coast award with Terry (now his family) holding up the Midwest at Victoria.

Contrary to popular belief, I did not join HC for the C&C juice, but rather because Roger, Ian and the staff completely support me playing typically alone with my Autistic son in the cart. Actually, I take it all back. Hidden Creek puts Dustin waaaay above member Pat Mucci!

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