News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« on: November 12, 2007, 06:44:23 PM »
On Friday I linked up some images of Legends Resort and Cascata for your viewing pleasure.  I found them, and those below, at a website called

http://www.elitegolfcourses.com/architect/

Check it out, fellas (and gals,) there is some pretty good stuff there.  


Opener....





2nd



3rd





4th







5th



6th





7th





8th






This hole looks fun to play!

9th





10th





11th



12th





13th





14th





15th





16th



17th





18th










What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 07:23:40 PM »
nothing i see of value there....its way to young to have any real strategic values....they moved too much dirt for effect....its all about eyecandy.....Cascata ll....i'd pass on this one.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 07:29:41 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 07:31:16 PM »
Ah, to think I grew up about 1 mile from Victoria and had some of the best large mouth bass fishing ever in those lakes!  I still can't believe the way that land was tranformed into a nice golf course.

Thanks for the pics Shivas.  ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 07:46:03 PM »
Ah, to think I grew up about 1 mile from Victoria and had some of the best large mouth bass fishing ever in those lakes!  I still can't believe the way that land was tranformed into a nice golf course.

Thanks for the pics Shivas.  ;)



Joe....you just proved my point....they even screwed up the fishing!
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 07:56:11 PM »
Paul, Paul, Paul... that's not right.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 08:22:56 PM »
Joe...... ;)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Cirba

Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 08:52:41 PM »
nothing i see of value there....its way to young to have any real strategic values....they moved too much dirt for effect....its all about eyecandy.....Cascata ll....i'd pass on this one.

Paul, Paul, Paul (is there an exasperated look smiley? ;))

I know you're trying to taunt what you see as our knee jerk reactions to Tom Fazio but there's no way we're going to let you off that easily.   ;D

Whaddaythinkwe'restupid??   ::) ;D

First impression...are the greens as SLOPED as they look in those pictures?  

I'm not talking internal contours...I'm talking SLOPE, because a number of them look as though they have major slope considerations to factor into the approach shots, which is always a cool thing.

Also, despite a little bit much shaping for my tastes, a good deal of that shaping is interesting and challenging convex stuff, which is almost always an interesting way to differentiate between shots that are superb or shots that are mediocre.

I do find myself wishing there was a little bit less of the stereotypical use of water on the par threes, and the "risk/reward" par fives, but overall, it looks like a course that would be intriguing, challenging, and probably also one that has a lot of variability in challenge based on hole location, wind direction, and amount of challenge the player is willing to take on any given day.

I also find myself wishing that the course is routinely kept hard and runny, the way bacon and eggs should be.   It certainly looks like it's designed for that type of general maintenance.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 08:53:32 PM by MPCirba »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 08:55:45 PM »
nothing i see of value there....its way to young to have any real strategic values....they moved too much dirt for effect....its all about eyecandy.....Cascata ll....i'd pass on this one.

I think someone didn't get his nap today.

CHrisB

Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 08:55:59 PM »
Amazing how much even beautiful photos like these fail to capture about the course.

Best work (and also the toughest course) I've seen from Tom Fazio, maybe because it was such
an ususual site for him--he couldn't just push dirt around wherever he wanted to because the network
of water-filled quarries limited the possibilities.

The 6th and 10th greens are the two best Fazio greens I've seen--brilliant contouring on each.

The aerial shows what kind of land (or lack thereof) he had to deal with. Notice all the water bridges.
The first hole is the farthest one ot the left.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 09:00:06 PM by Chris Brauner »

Tim Rooney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 09:04:37 PM »
Mike, Great pictures!I joined its' sister course,Sand Ridge, and now understand Victoria's elevated status.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 09:11:39 PM »
Amazing how much even beautiful photos like these fail to capture about the course.

Best work (and also the toughest course) I've seen from Tom Fazio, maybe because it was such
an ususual site for him--he couldn't just push dirt around wherever he wanted to because the network
of water-filled quarries limited the possibilities.

The 6th and 10th greens are the two best Fazio greens I've seen--brilliant contouring on each.

The aerial shows what kind of land (or lack thereof) he had to deal with. Notice all the water bridges.
The first hole is the farthest one ot the left.



Now if they could just fill in those black areas they would have some awesome homesites.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 09:17:42 PM »
nothing i see of value there....its way to young to have any real strategic values....they moved too much dirt for effect....its all about eyecandy.....Cascata ll....i'd pass on this one.

Paul, Paul, Paul (is there an exasperated look smiley? ;))

I know you're trying to taunt what you see as our knee jerk reactions to Tom Fazio but there's no way we're going to let you off that easily.   ;D

Whaddaythinkwe'restupid??   ::) ;D

First impression...are the greens as SLOPED as they look in those pictures?  

I'm not talking internal contours...I'm talking SLOPE, because a number of them look as though they have major slope considerations to factor into the approach shots, which is always a cool thing.

Also, despite a little bit much shaping for my tastes, a good deal of that shaping is interesting and challenging convex stuff, which is almost always an interesting way to differentiate between shots that are superb or shots that are mediocre.

I do find myself wishing there was a little bit less of the stereotypical use of water on the par threes, and the "risk/reward" par fives, but overall, it looks like a course that would be intriguing, challenging, and probably also one that has a lot of variability in challenge based on hole location, wind direction, and amount of challenge the player is willing to take on any given day.

I also find myself wishing that the course is routinely kept hard and runny, the way bacon and eggs should be.   It certainly looks like it's designed for that type of general maintenance.


Mike ....I was just just using the Tom Sawyer strategy to let you help me paint my fence. ;D
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Cirba

Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2007, 09:23:47 PM »
Paul,

I know, but I still had to give you crap about it.  ;)

VN also looks like a course that would punch you in the mouth if you were having a marginal day trying to play aggressively.

I know John will probably hate me even more for saying this, but from pictures I think I like it quite a bit.  

Perhaps I could play it with him some day, although I'd propose that we be joined with a 6 foot chain, sort of WWF style, and forced to play a mano2mano death match.  

He's bigger than me, but I'd be counting on him to try to do the opposite of what I'd expect, so I'd have a fighting chance I figure.  ;D
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 09:33:03 PM by MPCirba »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2007, 09:29:07 PM »
nothing i see of value there....its way to young to have any real strategic values....they moved too much dirt for effect....its all about eyecandy.....Cascata ll....i'd pass on this one.



I think someone didn't get his nap today.


James....maybe, but I'm trying to save my energy to walk the ski slope centerlines Wed of our course at the bottom of Bellayre in your neck of the woods.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2007, 09:52:27 PM »
nothing i see of value there....its way to young to have any real strategic values....they moved too much dirt for effect....its all about eyecandy.....Cascata ll....i'd pass on this one.

I think someone didn't get his nap today.


James....maybe, but I'm trying to save my energy to walk the ski slope centerlines Wed of our course at the bottom of Bellayre in your neck of the woods.


For breakfast, Sweet Sue's in Phoenicia for pancakes.  Very highly recommended.

Make sure you give me a call when ground breaks.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2007, 10:00:39 PM »
Dang, I've never seen that aerial before.  Those fingers of water are crazy looking.  Surely some thought went into making that routing work.

I like Fazio.  I've never understood the hatin' on him we sometimes see.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2007, 10:14:41 PM »
It looks wicked hard.  The photos are wonderful and it appears to be the kind of course that I'd love to visit, but be fearful to play on a regular basis.  It looks like the kind of course that could raise my handicap 5-10 strokes overnight.

The back right portion of the #10 green looks really cool in the lookback photo posted here.

I thought the hole-by-hole photos were intimidating, and then I saw the view from above.  Does the membership frown upon stashing a few range balls in your pockets to use for backups on the tough holes?  :o

John Kavanaugh

Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2007, 05:36:55 AM »
These pictures were taken before the aggressive tree removal program.  You gotta love the weather around here...got in 36 yesterday.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2007, 09:54:48 AM »
JB -

I look to get back out to VN in early June. I look forward to seeing the course after the tree removal. As I have stated, VN is in my top 10 and I think it is Fazio's best. Great variety and great fun.
Mr Hurricane

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2007, 09:56:42 AM »
Looks like fun, if you're playing decently.

Why is it called "Victoria National"?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2007, 10:41:50 AM »
Looks like fun, if you're playing decently.

Why is it called "Victoria National"?

JK can probably elaborate/correct my info, but I grew up near VN as a kid.  The Peabody Coal Company had a mine there called Victoria, I think.  Those narrow lakes you see is common in that part of the country as the coal was removed by 'strip mining', and after a site was picked clean, those lakes remained.  And as I mentioned earlier, the bass fishing in those old stripper pits, as we referred to them, was the best in the area.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

John Kavanaugh

Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2007, 11:30:34 AM »
Looks like fun, if you're playing decently.

Why is it called "Victoria National"?

The name of the mine where the club now sits was Victoria.  We have earned the National addition as I am sure without doing any research that at least 35% of our membership lives outside of Indiana.  I know you guys hate the National tag on clubs but we do have an interesting feature of the state flags of each state represented flying outside the clubhouse.

The course is very difficult but was built for people who love and respect the game enough not to suck.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2007, 12:22:09 PM »
The course is very difficult but was built for people who love and respect the game enough not to suck.

Thanks for the answer, John.

Though ... we are, all of us, with any luck, on our way to sucking. Some of us suck already, at least part of the time.

And I don't think that does or will diminish our love and respect for the game.

Will the course be a place you enjoy when you get around to sucking?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2007, 12:22:57 PM »
That aerial view is crazy!  It must have been both fun and a challenge to come-up with a routing given all of the opportunities/constraints the unique site posed (from what I can gather from the pictures).  It looks like a fun course for ballers for sure.  

Cheers,
Brad

John Kavanaugh

Re:Barney's Beloved Victoria Nat'l (pictures)
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2007, 02:32:17 PM »

Will the course be a place you enjoy when you get around to sucking?


Undubidably.  From the correct set of tees I will always have a great time playing the course no matter how old or dilapidated I may become.  Currently I could break 100 playing with a putter only, in a golf equipped wheelchair or left handed from the very up tees.  Bets will be accepted at the window next to the bar.

I played yesterday with a young single digit handicap that shot 112.  He had a great time and found as many balls as he lost.  We did not play in some mystical fog lost in the spirit of the game.  We hit our ball until it found the cup and teed it up again. (Him 35 more times than me.) That will always be fun with and for people who don't suck.

I am surprised that people who are afraid to play a difficult golf course on a regular basis have the courage to get out of bed in the morning.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back