H2O

[Mark_Fine]

Yes I know we generally don't like it (for one reason is that there is rarely ever a recovery from it), but if it wasn't there on 11, 12, 13, 15, and 16, The Masters wouldn't be nearly as exciting especially on Sunday afternoon.  Sorry but that is not fake news no matter how you spin it 


Maybe we should look at water a little differently than we do. 

[Kalen Braley]

Mark,

I don't think its an issue of water per se, but one of how it is presented.  13 is terrific with the meandering in and out creek and a miracle possibility of having something playable if it goes down there. 11, 12, and 15 would benefit same with similar type presentation and be equally as intimidating to the golfer.. 

16 is the one hole where I'm more apt to give it a pass in its current pond form...

[Mark_Fine]

Kalen,
It is definitely how it is presented but it is still water.  We've talked about the evolution of the water on 13 before (how they have raised it up and lowered it back down (thankfully) to add to that unpredictable aspect and additional temptation to go for it.  But it is still the water that creates the excitement.  Replace it with a grass hollow or sand,... and we have a totally different (and much less exciting back nine).  The fear of the big number all but goes away.


We give Augusta a free pass with all the water that creates excitement yet diss it elsewhere?  Interesting. 

[Tom_Doak]

It's only natural to use a water hazard if God gave you one to use.  My favorite water hazards are creeks, but as you know, Mark, if you have a natural creek most states won't let you get very close to it with maintained turf.  [Montana was an exception; the law there was written for loggers.]  So in many cases you can only build close to a stream if it's an artificial stream, and I'm not a big fan of those, even though we did build the one on the 15th at Memorial Park.


The water hazards I hate are the big ponds that are clearly artificial, which Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus and their descendants built in large numbers from 1980-2008.  But if you have a 40-acre lake like Streamsong or Lost Dunes, why would you stay away from it?

[SL_Solow]

Tom,  Of course the 2 large hazards you identified were the result of mining operations.  So while you found them and used them well, in a sense they were artificial.  It's just that the architect didn't build them.  Does that make a difference?  For the record, I think those water features are very well integrated into the courses and add interest.

[Rob Marshall]

It's only natural to use a water hazard if God gave you one to use.  My favorite water hazards are creeks, but as you know, Mark, if you have a natural creek most states won't let you get very close to it with maintained turf.  [Montana was an exception; the law there was written for loggers.]  So in many cases you can only build close to a stream if it's an artificial stream, and I'm not a big fan of those, even though we did build the one on the 15th at Memorial Park.


The water hazards I hate are the big ponds that are clearly artificial, which Pete Dye and Jack Nicklaus and their descendants built in large numbers from 1980-2008.  But if you have a 40-acre lake like Streamsong or Lost Dunes, why would you stay away from it?

Interesting, I grew up on a Muni in Rochester NY that rumor has it Walter Hagen used to play. There was a creek that ran thru at least 7 of the fairways.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom,  Of course the 2 large hazards you identified were the result of mining operations.  So while you found them and used them well, in a sense they were artificial.  It's just that the architect didn't build them.  Does that make a difference?  For the record, I think those water features are very well integrated into the courses and add interest.

SL -
it’s a good question; I hope Tom chimes in.

But when I think of the many I’ve seen over the years, it isn’t so much the artificiality of the hazards themselves that throws me off as the artificiality of the golf holes that ‘utilize’ those hazards.

The golf holes — and that utilization — always seem to me a tad too neat, too precise, too ‘strategic’ even: the golf holes always hug or traverse the water at just the ‘right’ angle or with the ‘proper’ balance and symmetry. 

It’s as if the very building of large man-made ponds encourages the architect to ‘complete the scene’ in an equally man-made way, both in the golf holes and with the overall routing; it’s as if they say to themselves “Well, I myself put the pond there so I darn well better use it in the best possible way,  and as many times as I can!”

[Sean_A]

Kalen,
It is definitely how it is presented but it is still water.  We've talked about the evolution of the water on 13 before (how they have raised it up and lowered it back down (thankfully) to add to that unpredictable aspect and additional temptation to go for it.  But it is still the water that creates the excitement.  Replace it with a grass hollow or sand,... and we have a totally different (and much less exciting back nine).  The fear of the big number all but goes away.


We give Augusta a free pass with all the water that creates excitement yet diss it elsewhere?  Interesting.

Mark

I don't think the concept of water get dissed, it's the execution using water which is often uninspiring. I like a stream and hitting over the edge of a large body of water as much as the next guy. Ponds rarely work well to my eye. I don't care for the water on 16 or 11 at Augusta. Both look a bit weird probably because they are converted from a creek. It doesn't help that the banks are manicured, rolled down grass.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Maybe we should look at water a little differently than we do.

Alternatively maybe we should look at what surrounds water a little differently than we do?
atb

[Ronald Montesano]

A. We don't really give ANGC a pass, because none of us plays it. We hammer excessive water on courses that some of us have some sort of access to. On this DG, some of you have played Pine Valley and Cypress Point, among the elite clubs. I wager that the number with history at ANGC is much, much smaller. It is a unicorn, one that we see professionals play, one week a year. It is different from other courses, in that no one talks about how the amateur plays it. There is no common-amateur chrestomathy.


B. Rob Marshall...Durand Eastman? Sad that they took land away from where the Haig used to play.


C. The ponds in front of 15 and 16 are here to stay, along with the one left of 11. Interesting that there is no water beyond those five holes (11, 12, 13, 15, 16.) The creeks on 12 and 13 are minor hazards, yet so impactful. Is the pond on 11 important anymore, now that the golfers come in with short irons?


D. ANGC may be the only course that threatens the top ten in rankings, that could be mistaken for a TPC-style course. This is certainly due to the current trend of ranking, but ANGC bridges the divide between the fast/firm, linksy layouts and the lusher, parkland layouts. Old Town does the same, in Winston-Salem, NC, but not (thankfully) to the same extent.


E. I prefer creeks and streams over ponds and rivers, for opportunity to recover and aesthetics. I would allow for a golf course to be built on Goat Island, however, with the Niagara and Horseshoe falls on either side.

[Rob Marshall]

A. We don't really give ANGC a pass, because none of us plays it. We hammer excessive water on courses that some of us have some sort of access to. On this DG, some of you have played Pine Valley and Cypress Point, among the elite clubs. I wager that the number with history at ANGC is much, much smaller. It is a unicorn, one that we see professionals play, one week a year. It is different from other courses, in that no one talks about how the amateur plays it. There is no common-amateur chrestomathy.


B. Rob Marshall...Durand Eastman? Sad that they took land away from where the Haig used to play.


C. The ponds in front of 15 and 16 are here to stay, along with the one left of 11. Interesting that there is no water beyond those five holes (11, 12, 13, 15, 16.) The creeks on 12 and 13 are minor hazards, yet so impactful. Is the pond on 11 important anymore, now that the golfers come in with short irons?


D. ANGC may be the only course that threatens the top ten in rankings, that could be mistaken for a TPC-style course. This is certainly due to the current trend of ranking, but ANGC bridges the divide between the fast/firm, linksy layouts and the lusher, parkland layouts. Old Town does the same, in Winston-Salem, NC, but not (thankfully) to the same extent.


E. I prefer creeks and streams over ponds and rivers, for opportunity to recover and aesthetics. I would allow for a golf course to be built on Goat Island, however, with the Niagara and Horseshoe falls on either side.

Yes Durand Eastman. Great course to learn to play and a cast of characters.

[Mark_Fine]

It seems many here feel that their issue with water is how it is presented or the execution of the water that is most important.  Peter goes on to state that - "The golf holes — and that utilization — always seem to me a tad too neat, too precise, too ‘strategic’ even: the golf holes always hug or traverse the water at just the ‘right’ angle or with the ‘proper’ balance and symmetry.”  Actually Peter seems to be describing the water holes at Augusta National   but anyway we have a lot of really smart and clever architects out there.  Augusta has water on over half the holes on the back nine and it is the water that creates the oohs and ahhhs on Sunday afternoon. If water is so exciting, why don’t more of the best architects use it more often (and present and execute it properly)??  I think the best answer so far and I agree with him is what Tom said about limitations of design when dealing with "natural" water features like streams.  But these features (especially these days with modern technology) can be added if architects wanted them.  Maybe it is because many architects still follow the practice of most of the Golden Age architects who also wouldn’t build water features on their own but would utilize them here and there if they “were blessed” with a meandering stream for example that wandered through the property.  If they had the means would they have added them?

Bottomline, no one here can deny that it is the water (and how it is presented) that makes the back nine at The Masters so exciting.  Do you think any of us would be on the edge of our seats when the leader comes to #12 if there wasn’t water in front of that green or has 235 yards into #15 from an iffy lie in the rough and starts thinking about what to do 

[Joe Hancock]

17 at Sawgrass is great theater during the tournament because of the water. Go ahead and do that on every project because it’s fun to watch the pro’s deal with it once a year.....

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
Ard you saying the back nine at Augusta or The TPC at Sawgrass wouldn’t be much fun if you had to play it often or as your home course? 

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,
Ard you saying the back nine at Augusta or The TPC at Sawgrass wouldn’t be much fun if you had to play it often or as your home course?

I’m saying Mrs. Haverkamp doesn’t handle forced carries over water particularly well. I can still deal with it, but my time is coming.

[Mike_Trenham]

Joe,
Ard you saying the back nine at Augusta or The TPC at Sawgrass wouldn’t be much fun if you had to play it often or as your home course?

I’m saying Mrs. Haverkamp doesn’t handle forced carries over water particularly well. I can still deal with it, but my time is coming.

Forced carries of < 135 yards are a okay with me.