[Tom_Doak]

My problem with this hole is that it's obvious that Ron just wanted to build a blind par-3 hole because he thought it was an important concept or because it would generate discussion, and he forced one into Erin Hills, instead of waiting to find a good spot to build one later in his career.

Someone asked early on if those of us who don't like the Dell at Erin Hills like the one at Lahinch.  Well, the Dell at Lahinch is one of my favorite holes in golf.  It's a completely natural idea -- you try to hit it just over a big dune into a little pocket between the sandhills.  If you miss the tee shot, there are all sorts of carom shots which might be played for a recovery.  [I learned that by sitting off to the side and watching people play the hole for a couple of hours one day.]  It is impressive to look at and fun to play.

The Dell at Erin Hills has nothing to hit over.  It feels like it calls for a deliberate topped shot.  It needs the alignment rock because without it, you would have no idea where the hole was.  [I don't mean the pin placement -- I mean you would have no idea where the entire golf hole was, or you'd assume you were playing to the eighth green way off in the distance, which is probably what they should have done.]

There are no interesting shots that I could envision around the green on the Erin Hills hole.  If you don't hit the green you just have a downhill pitch out of rough, no contours to take into play, no bank shots.

[Dan Moore]

Tom,

I have been thinking the exact same thing all day about the 7th hole bypassing the Dell and heading down the corridor of the 8th hole.  There is over 600 yards in that area so it could easily be a par 5.  In fact I would put the green in the hollow before the rise to the current 8th green making the approach semi-blind and it would eliminate one of the repetitive uphill approach shots.  

The Dell is ok but it seems to me that on a piece of property that dramatic there has to be a better, more original par three out there somewhere.   That the Dell doesn't really resonate is made worse by the unremarkable nature of the 8th.  To me the 8th is the real weak link and this would address it.    

With 8 as a par 5 then the 18th could be changed back to the 9th hole with a 100 yards chopped off where the 8th is shortened to make it a 450-500 yard long, strong par 4.  This would work if there is a decent short par 3 in between the 4th and 5th.  A short par 3 there and playing the 6th at 236 would address the fact all the par 3's are about the same distance.  It would also eliminate the need to walk at least 150 yards from the green on 4 to the tee on 5.  The course would flow better between nines and the Bye hole would come where it should, after the 18th.  

[John Kavanaugh]

The truth of the matter is that as bad as some of you think the Dell hole is, it is a better designed hole than the Bye hole.  

[Brendan Dolan]

Mr. Doak,
I am just curious if you played the course or just walked it?  Part of what makes the hole fun for me is watching my ball disappear into the valley and then rushing up to the crest of the hill to see the final result.  I've played the original dell, and I get the same level of enjoyment from both, but it is a different experience.  I agree that the green might benefit from a little bit more contour.

My brother caddied at Erin Hills this summer, and he said that the people who hit a good tee shot loved the hole, while those who played it poorly didn't enjoy it.  

Brendan

[J_ Crisham]

Played Erin Hills in August with fellow GCA player Kyle Krahenbuhl. We played it from 202yards into a breeze. Not a very inviting feeling trying to whistle a 2-iron into a green buried in a ravine. If this is good architecture where is a sense of fairness. I have been fortunate to play the dell hole at Lahinch and find this to be much more equitable at 155yards . Asfar as Erin Hills goes, a fun place to  spend a day but host a U.S. Open? Add some back tees to Milwaukee C.C. -now you have an Open venue in Wis.

[Ken Fry]

Work has been hell this week so I apologize for not chiming in for more of the discussions.

When I arrived at Erin Hills I only had one preconceived notion about the course and it was this hole.  I heard so many negatives about it including those discussing EH as a U.S. Open site ("they'll just take it out and use the Bye hole.")

It did surprise me to be hitting down to the green as opposed to over something to reach the green.  After we played it, I didn't think it was that big a deal.

I'll agree with Jaka on this compared to the Bye hole.  I believe the Dell hole plays more fair.

Ken

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Loved it. I like the original and like this one as well. You can spot the pin from 6 tee.

[Scott Weersing]

Rather than an aiming rock, they should have a marshal sitting in a cart on top of the hill to one side. He puts up a white flag to let you know the green is clear. I know that most courses would avoid blind holes because they need to have a marshall. But the marshall could also be checking the pace of play (much like the marshalls at Bandon)

The No. 2 hole at La Purisima has a blind landing area from the tee box. So in the morning when it is busy, there is a marshall letting you know when the fairway is clear.

[Scott Weersing]

My problem with this hole is that it's obvious that Ron just wanted to build a blind par-3 hole because he thought it was an important concept or because it would generate discussion, and he forced one into Erin Hills, instead of waiting to find a good spot to build one later in his career.

Someone asked early on if those of us who don't like the Dell at Erin Hills like the one at Lahinch.  Well, the Dell at Lahinch is one of my favorite holes in golf.  It's a completely natural idea -- you try to hit it just over a big dune into a little pocket between the sandhills.  If you miss the tee shot, there are all sorts of carom shots which might be played for a recovery.  [I learned that by sitting off to the side and watching people play the hole for a couple of hours one day.]  It is impressive to look at and fun to play.

The Dell at Erin Hills has nothing to hit over.  It feels like it calls for a deliberate topped shot.  It needs the alignment rock because without it, you would have no idea where the hole was.  [I don't mean the pin placement -- I mean you would have no idea where the entire golf hole was, or you'd assume you were playing to the eighth green way off in the distance, which is probably what they should have done.]

There are no interesting shots that I could envision around the green on the Erin Hills hole.  If you don't hit the green you just have a downhill pitch out of rough, no contours to take into play, no bank shots.

Will there be a Dell hole at Old Macdonald?

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

There will be two blind shots at Old Macdonald -- the tee shot on the "Sahara" and the approach to the "Alps".  Macdonald never went to Ireland as far as I know, so the Dell was not one of his models.

Brendan:

My only visit to Erin Hills so far was two weeks before it opened, so I have just walked the course.

[Garland Bayley]

Although I don't find what I have learned about this Dell Hole awe inspiring, I would like to see the tour players play it. The primary reason I would like to see them play it is to educate the public that such holes exist and that they can be fun.

As for the safety issue, I am surprised no one has mentioned the device we use at my home course. We have a tee shot into a "dell" (we even have trees). The safety issue is handled by an angled mirror on a tall pole. For those who are concerned with such a device exposing the result of their shot, I doubt anyone could use it to see where the ball ends up. If so, make the mirror convex so that it will show players in the dell, but further miniaturize other objects.

[J_ Crisham]

In response to John Kavanaugh's description of the bye hole being designed to a lesser extent than the Dell hole I have difficulty seeing this. The EH dell hole is merely a flat green buried in a ravine-nothing more, nothing less.  The bye hole was a well bunkered , 130yard exposed hole that could be devilish with a breeze.

[Kalen Braley]

Liberty Lake golf course in spokane, wa has a "bell" hole.  The drive is blind to the fairway below.  After the players have hit thier approach to the green, they ring the bell for the all clear signal.

Indian Canyon in spokane has a similar hole. They installed a large mirror on top of a post that sits 15 feet up to visually inspect the fairway and ensure its clear.

Garland...I did mention this..  

[Tom_Doak]

Garland / Kalen:

The Erin Hills hole is flat for about 100 yards and then downhill for the last fifty -- the mirror would either have to be VERY tall near the tee, or 75 yards away from the tee, to get an angle.  This one needs a different system -- closed-circuit TV or a light or switch activated by the group going on/off the green.

[Sean_A]

Garland / Kalen:

The Erin Hills hole is flat for about 100 yards and then downhill for the last fifty -- the mirror would either have to be VERY tall near the tee, or 75 yards away from the tee, to get an angle.  This one needs a different system -- closed-circuit TV or a light or switch activated by the group going on/off the green.

Please, nobody mention bloody tv where a course is concerned.  There are ways to alert the group behind that the green is clear without resorting to more technical mumbo jumbo.  A bell does the job or a rope system which flips an arm on the tee (I saw this at Shiskine - very cool).  In a way I am surprised that the hole wasn't designed with the players being seen on the next tee.  

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Kalen,

I didn't read your whole post. I read the bell, then I read similar, and I assumed you were describing another bell and skipped on.

Tom,

The pole only has to be tall enough, no taller! The hole on my home course is flat 150 yards and then steeply downhill. From the pictures of the dell at EH, I cannot imagine it needing a pole as tall as ours.

[kconway]

I found the dell hole out of place and pretenous.

The par 3 "19th" was outdtanding.

In general, it seems Erin Hills is riding the USGA hype.

[Doug Siebert]

My brother caddied at Erin Hills this summer, and he said that the people who hit a good tee shot loved the hole, while those who played it poorly didn't enjoy it.

Most people hate it whether or not they did well on it = poor hole
People who did well like it, people who did poorly hate it = mediocre hole
Most people love it whether or not they did well on it = great hole

Think about that in context of your brother's comment on Erin Hills' Dell, compared with some holes that most people love like the Road Hole, ANGC's 12th, the Postage Stamp, etc.

[Jim Nugent]

Doug, does your formula work for courses, too?  

[Brendan Dolan]

Or it shows you how people view blind shots.  Could people also love those holes because they are on major championship/world famous courses?

Brendan

[Doug Siebert]

Well, I could come up with examples on lesser known courses, too.  I picked those because they are well known to everyone here, not really thinking how they are viewed by the TV watching public.  I could have just as easily picked Lahinch's Dell, Lawsonia's 7th and Jubilee's 15th if you want courses without TV exposure.

I don't think my overly simplistic formula works for courses, there are too many other variables that people like or dislike courses for, everything from whether they have guys to take your bag right out of your trunk and put it into a cart, to how green the grass is, to how good of a job the 20 year old cart girl does pretending to be attracted to overweight guys in their mid 50s.

[CHrisB]

Doug,
I know they are just examples, but are you saying that most people love Lahinch's Dell, Lawsonia's 7th and Jubilee's 15th (I loved 2 of the 3 but have heard plenty of arguments against 2 of the 3 being great holes)?

I don't quite agree with "People who did well like it, people who did poorly hate it = mediocre hole" assessment. If that holds, then just about every hole at Pinehurst #2 might be considered mediocre, as could controversial holes like the 14th at Bandon Trails, the 2nd at Erin Hills, and the 6th at Pacific Dunes.

But I get your point that truly great holes should generally be recognized as such regardless of how one plays them--still I wonder as Brendan does whether or not some people fall in love with some holes just because they are famous or the rest of the course is great. I think people can get predisposed to love (or hate) a hole or course if they know or have been told too much about it before their first play.

[Brendan Dolan]

I garuntee that about 80% or so of the golfers my brother caddied for would judge the dell at Lahinch the same way.  It was more of a comment on how the average joe golfer judges a hole.

[CHrisB]

Brendan,
I can imagine holes like the original Dell at Lahinch, and the one at Erin Hills, being so confusing for some first-time players that they stand there on the tee not really knowing what to think. Then if that confusion leads them to play a bad shot, they comdemn the hole for it. Likewise if they happen to hit it great and make a great score, they feel great about the hole. Kinda viewing it like a lottery.

Of course it isn't a lottery, and repeat plays would bear that out.

[Brendan Dolan]

Agreed.  I bet a lot of golfers would have liked to go right back to the tee and hit another tee shot once they relized how simple the hole can be.

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