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Brad Klein

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Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« on: November 02, 2007, 06:13:44 PM »
Just got back from a visit to Bethpage-Black and got a pretty good look at the latest round of changes, additions, tweaks, etc. for the 2009 U.S. Open. Includes photos and basics.

http://www.golfweek.com/story/bethpage_news_110207

Matt OBrien

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2007, 06:19:49 PM »
I am going to bethpage this week so I will take pics and post them as soon as possible.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2007, 06:34:36 PM »
How does the demographic of golfers who play Bethpage now compare to those who played it when it first opened?

wsmorrison

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2007, 06:51:59 PM »
Are any other greens besides the 14th being expanded?  I cannot imagine that they were designed to be circles.  Would additional green space add interesting pin positions and some contours or slopes?  I don't think lengthening the course and adding bunkers is going to make the course better...just more resistant to scoring.  I guess that's an improvement to some.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2007, 07:05:07 PM »
They're expanding the parking lot so more people can wait overnight for tee times
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

wsmorrison

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 07:11:19 PM »
I wouldn't wait overnight in my car for a ---- --- let alone a round at Bethpage Black.  I wonder how much they'll jack up the prices; for Bethpage Black that is.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 07:11:40 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Kyle Harris

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2007, 07:41:05 PM »
Wayne,

The prices are set to increase at a certain rate as part of the agreement with the USGA to host the Open. I doubt they'll go much higher in the next few years.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2007, 08:06:41 PM »
I have been an ardent defender of Bethpage Black and of the original work done by Rees Jones, however, I believe they have finally crossed the line of acceptable tweeking.

It's bad enough that the maintenance practices maintain US Open fairway widths for the average Joe's on a day to day basis but to perform plastic surgery by changing green shapes (#14) and adding uncalled for bunkers is unacceptable.

They already pinched the fairway in from the PREFERRED right side of the fairway.  What do they do - add a bunker on the left which is already not the preferred angle into the green - note that with a 600 yard tee now who knows what strategy is left in the tee shot. Is this necessary?

#4 is I think Tillinghast's best par 5 and I've played them all. The angle of the cross bunker for the second shot dictates that the shorter carry on the left leaves a less preferred angle over the front bunker to a fallaway green. Risking a longer carry on the right gives the reward of an easier pitch third.  Why then punish the weaker player who can carry the lefdt side of the cross bunker by adding another bunker 70 yards short of the green?

Phil Young- What's going on here?  Bethpage is slowly getting away from "Golf for the People".  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(

Jim Nugent

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2007, 02:51:25 AM »
Wayne,

The prices are set to increase at a certain rate as part of the agreement with the USGA to host the Open.

Why does the USGA want to make a public course less affordable to the public?  

Mike Sweeney

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2007, 05:55:44 AM »
Wayne,

The prices are set to increase at a certain rate as part of the agreement with the USGA to host the Open.

Why does the USGA want to make a public course less affordable to the public?  

The deal the USGA made with the State of NY was they paid for the original renovation, but the State had to keep prices low. Blame the State of NY not the USGA on rising prices at BB.

However I played Mohansic a Westchester County course yesterday for $35 or so, and it is a very nice layout and piece of land, but Bethpage is the greatest deal in golf from a pricing perspective. The conditioning rivals all but the very top private clubs.

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2007, 12:46:23 PM »
Played the Black yesterday. Did not have to sleep in my car. Got there at 6 am and got the 3rd tee time--8.12 am. 4 and half hours later (too long) we were done. I am a New York state resident and it cost me 50 bucks. It is in fantastic shape--on par with anything in NYC metro that I have seen (sleepy, tamarack, greenwich, round hill) Are you kidding me?? It is worth  double the cost. As to those who dont like it? Fine--don't go. More space for us masochists. It is an AMAZING deal for a great golf course.

Kyle Harris

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2007, 01:23:34 PM »
Wayne,

The prices are set to increase at a certain rate as part of the agreement with the USGA to host the Open.

Why does the USGA want to make a public course less affordable to the public?  

Supply and Demand, first of all. Bethpage could charge $300 and still be packed. The USGA is NOT to blame here.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2007, 02:07:21 PM »
I have not yet seen these recent changes.  However, it always amazes me how a club will make significant modifications to their course just for one big event knowing that this will impact their members/golfers for years before and afterward.  Making these older courses more penal and more one dimensional is sad as far as I’m concerned, especially when you are going to leave it that way after the event.    

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2007, 02:17:04 PM »
Is Bethpage State Park better off since formalizing this relationship with the USGA?

Is the net-net better for those of you that know and play there better or worse than the mid-90's and earlier?

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2007, 02:26:21 PM »
Wayne,

The prices are set to increase at a certain rate as part of the agreement with the USGA to host the Open.

Why does the USGA want to make a public course less affordable to the public?  

Supply and Demand, first of all. Bethpage could charge $300 and still be packed. The USGA is NOT to blame here.


Kyle, while the USGA is not SOLELY responsible, to not make them part of the problem here is simply not the case. Someone has to hire someone like Jones, and it is in fact the USGA. Jones takes alot of criticism here, some justifiable, some not. He asked to carry out the task of toughening up the course and the path he has taken to do so is what is open for debate. Ultimately however, he gets his checks from the USGA and I can't imagine that David Fay feels that this path the course is embarking upon is faithful to the legacy of AWT or golf for the masses as the Bethpage Park was envisioned. I agree with Fine's comments, this is lunacy to do these changes for ONE event. I trust Philip Youngs comments as to the intial changes being a positive step for the course as a whole, but I sense a slippery slope on the horizon and the course will have too much Jones and not enough AWT, which I can't imagine the USGA envisioned here. Wasn't it tough enough the last time? If not, why not go elsewhere and not rip out the legacy of AWT's work? Protectors of the legacy of the game? Hmmmm......
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Steve Verde

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2007, 02:28:32 PM »
The USGA is definitely going overboard with these changes. I believe that it already was a perfect venue for the US Open. The scores were where the USGA likes them to be with the exception of Tiger, but you cant go out and make the course so difficult so that not even Tiger can go under par. I know the rain was a large part of the resistance to scoring in '02 but it still a fair test. The USGA needs to realize that the players are too good and they can't keep tricking up and ruining the classics. I can't believe that they are adding bunkers to the 4th hole. That is probably one of the very best, if not the best, inland par 5 in America and nothing needed to be changed. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Does any know who is in charge of the renovations? Is it Rees Jones again?

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2007, 02:39:25 PM »
ok i agree with the adding bunkers part (although so far it's only two? as i can tell)
does adding new back tees really change the golf course that much for 90% percent of us? we shouldn't be all the way back anyway. if you play the middle tees at the Black it's a VERY challenging 6700 yards. do the new tees really affect US in terms of strategy?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2007, 03:30:46 PM »
Jeff,
It is much more than just some new back tees.  It is everything else in between as well.

I asked this question (similar to the one Jim asked in this thread) sometime ago and never got a response - How many times has a course really improved as a result of the USGA coming in to set it up for a U.S. Open.  And I'm not talking about just the course manicuring, you can perfectly manicure a cow pasture.  I'm talking about improving the golf course as a whole and setting a good example for golf.  It seems they always go too far and I don't think it does anything positive for golf or golf courses in general.
Mark
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 04:13:42 PM by Mark_Fine »

Joe Bausch

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Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2007, 03:36:23 PM »
I posted photos of the new teebox about three weeks ago.  Here is the thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31669
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Golden

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2007, 04:18:50 PM »
"A massive new bunker has also been installed on the uphill, 517-yard, par-5 fourth hole. The sculpted bunker sits about 70 yards short left of the green and considerable tightens the landing area for second shots."

I can't believe this is being done.  Why not just put a pond there instead and drain and fill it after the Open.  I'm with Geoff, I don't know why they are tinkering with one of the best par 5's in the world.

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2007, 04:36:49 PM »
mark
agree with you-- esp if the prices go up.
would also agree that new tees send the wrong message--"long is good and hit as far as you can". that's not going to get more people interested in the game or make the game more fun.
but what to do except NOT hold the us open there? i don't agree with the usga but the pros are hitting it so far....how do you challenge them? i suppose it could be argued that 3 under is not a ridiculous score and they could leave the course alone. or hold the us open in october when there is a better chance of the wind blowing on long island :)

igrowgrass

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2007, 07:50:13 PM »
Only Rees Jones would recommend to add a bunker to this hole.  In an effort to say he had a hand in designing a great par 5, I've yet to see one he has done on his own.  
I remember standing on the this tee and thinking "wow, a Par 6?"

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2007, 07:59:54 PM »
And then some folks think we're too hard on Rees in here.   ::)

What a hack.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2007, 08:33:55 AM »
Yes, I'm not so sure, after reading this article, that these changes were necessary, in the main;
For one, it's my opinion that you play up the right side of the hole on the second shot of #4--the idea is, Tillie oriented the green that way to give people playing the correct angles an unobstructed pitch.  

I don't think a bunker in the left rough 70 yards from the green is going to do a heck of a lot, if anything at all.  Holding the green from the rough here is tough enough.  The play is to the right side of the fairway on the second shot, as far down as you can go.  
Maybe this money could have been better spent elsewhere, like on the Red Course.  

#13 at 605 is long.  Wow.  Still, maybe for the pros, it might be merited.  

#14 looks odd with the green in its current shape.  One of the nice things, IMO, about BB's par threes in past years was that you had a mid-iron in hand for #3,8; a short iron for #14, and a long iron for #16; all of them basically an aerial shot, but different clubs and over different terrain.  

Still a great deal, whatever it costs now.  I'm out of state, so I'm getting hit on the out-of-state fees, but, it is what it is.  I don't pay NYS taxes.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Phil_the_Author

Re:Bethpage-Black gets stretched and tweaked
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2007, 08:59:17 AM »
The changes and additions to the Black are a direct result of the increased length of play on the PGA tour and how this will affect play at the Open in 2009. “The par-70 course, which played 7,214 yards in 2002, is being stretched by 250 yards to 7,464 yards. Not coincidentally, the 3.5 percent additional length correlates closely to the 3.2 percent gain in average driving distance on the PGA Tour from 2002 (280 yards) to 2007 (289.2 yards).”
 
As a result, many, in fact, most of these changes will not affect the play of anyone other than the most talented of players.

As Brad noted, “All told, new tees are in place or to be created for holes the par-3 third and Nos. 5, 7, 9, 10, and 16, all of them par-4s…”

The added lengths on several of these holes (5, 9 &10) have actually been in place for several years now and some of them may still not be used during the open (e.g. 9).

Rarely, if at all, will there be tee markers placed on these new tees for use during normal play. The Park recognizes that almost no one can play from them and know that if they were in use during normal play that it would have a greatly deleterious effect on time of play.

A very good example of this is the new tee that was put in place for 15 before the 2002 Open. It was deemed too long and difficult and not used and has not been open to play since. It will be interesting to see if it is used in ’09.

Some of the changes will affect day-to-day play, and most of these are for the good. For example, “In some cases, fairways are also being widened marginally…” This should be most welcome (especially to Mr. Childs) to all. In fact, a suggestion has been made to change the fairway areas on several holes from what it is now. The thinking is as follows. On 10 & 11 ( and a few others) because the USGA established a fairway width and then measured and laid them out based on where the center lines are, strategy placed into the hole designs has been eliminated. It has been suggested then that the fairways, regardless of overall width, hug one side or the other as this will then bring back into play some wonderful bunkers that Tilly designed. Think of the bunkers to the right side of 10 & 11. In addition, this will also bring back into play shot angles specifically designed to test the better player. I personally believe that this is a very good suggestion and am looking forward to seeing if it will be implemented.

Again, as Brad wrote, “The two biggest changes to Bethpage-Black are taking place on the only two holes that played to an average score of under par during the 2002 U.S. Open…”

“At the 161-yard, par-3 14th hole (avg. score in 2002 was 2.903), a large new greenside bunker on the left has been put in, and the putting surface increased by about one-third, thanks to a new front leading edge and a considerable shelf on the back that falls away slightly from the line of approach…”

These hole changes have been discussed on here before, but in a nutshell, the larger putting surface was needed for play on every level. Before the available hole locations were few, now the entire green can be used. The new front-left tongue will be an exciting area for hole locations, as will the back right behind the bunker. By the way, this area was originally green surface so, in effect, this is a restoration in that area rather than a change. The new left-side bunker aids in strategy and decision-making and actually is easier to play from than the heavy rough that was there before.

The final large change, “The par-5 13th hole (avg. score in 2002 was 4.941) is being stretched from 554 yards to 605, with a new tee currently under construction adjacent to a new pump station that is being installed. The hole is also slated to get a new fairway bunker that will pinch the driving area from the left…” is the most controversial.

Despite the low hole average during the Open, neither par-5 had a single eagle recorded by a player reaching the green in two. Would the relatively short 4th be at risk of an eagle-fest this time? Some of the top players were asked whether they believed that they would play the hole with the idea of going for it in two in ’09… To a person they said “No.”

A recommendation had been made to lengthen the hole for “09 by building a new tee on the back side of the third green. It was rejected because of the massive amount of work (earth-moving and tree removal) that it would have taken to accomplish it.

Now as for the new bunker short left of the green, I am certain that it will surprise many, and possibly even shock some, to hear that I am very much against this bunker. I believe that it will have no effect on play whatsoever during the ’09 Open. It is 470 +/- yards from the tee and the only shots played to the left side of the fairway in this area will be miss-hits as all will properly play to the right side.

For the most part this will only come into play during normal course of play and punish the average player. It is for this reason that I don’t like it and wish it wasn’t put in there.

As Brad noted, “The work is being… carried out in-house and overseen by superintendent Craig Currier…”

This is a good thing. Craig has spent a good deal of time researching Tilly’s design ideas as they were put into practice and, especially where bunker construction is involved, does an outstanding job bringing these about.

There were a few other recommendations made to tweak the course for the ’09 Open. For example, increasing green sizes by recovering lost areas from years past. Some of this (e.g. on 7 & 11) has already happened. It will be interesting to see how much more of this will occur.

Unfortunately, I have to cut this short ( ;D), but if there are other questions I will be more than happy to try and address them later.

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