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Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1150 on: February 27, 2009, 06:56:17 AM »
Jon,

There are a lot of options.   Ultimately it won't be up to us to decide anything but we will come up with suggestions and estimates and possibly persuasive arguments.  ;)

All,

This from Steve Shaffer's recent thread where Jay Flemma intereviews author Tom Coyne, who, on foot, played every links course in Ireland and wrote a book called "A Golf Course Called Ireland".   Check out the interview...he's obviously a GCAer in his heart.

JF: And how about some of your favorites in the U.S.?

TC: I enjoy the golf course at Glenn Mills outside Philadelphia, a Bobby Weed design, really fun golf course across some wild terrain, and Cobbs Creek is an oft-maligned course in Philadelphia that was once a world-class PGA Tour-caliber track. It hasn't been in great shape for I don't know how many decades, and a friend was once mugged while playing it (finished his match and won one-up), but it has the bones of a classic East Coast turn-of-the-century track. Home to some of the first great black golf professionals as well, it's a historically significant place.


mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1151 on: February 27, 2009, 09:22:19 AM »
 I taught Tom Coyne everything he knows about gca. I just saw him last night at his book signing. He wrote in my book "no trees to cut down on this course".
   
AKA Mayday

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1152 on: February 27, 2009, 09:32:52 PM »
Yall will be sorry one day that you didnt give me that handle with a nickname so I can tell all that I know
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1153 on: February 28, 2009, 10:51:38 AM »
Tim,

I doth royally dub thee "Curious Cope".

Pray tell? 

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1154 on: February 28, 2009, 11:31:41 AM »
On another thread, Forrest Richardson pointed out this very, very creative use of a driving range.  Given the "Driving Range as impediment" thinking that some here seem a bit stymied by, I frankly see it as an opportunity to really drive restoration, revenue-enhancement, and historical tributes and archiving.  So many options...  :)

http://archpaper.com/e-board_rev.asp?News_ID=3231



Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1155 on: February 28, 2009, 08:23:09 PM »
Kyle,

Per our discussion today, here's a few of the relevant areas of the April 1915 pre-construction topo.


First, the climb on the original #6 does appear to be about 85 feet, correct?



This one shows the elevation change of the original 13th hole, as well as what we were talking about around today's 7th (old 9th) green.



This one shows the area up along the left side of today's #9.   Perhaps you can read topos better than I but I don't see that big, abrupt rise on the left that's there today.




That was a lot of fun today.   
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 08:26:07 PM by MikeCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1156 on: February 28, 2009, 08:48:16 PM »
Mike,

I think the left side of the 9th was definitely built up. No way that area is the natural contour. Talk to you soon.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1157 on: February 28, 2009, 10:45:24 PM »
Kyle,

This is the picture I was mentioning.   Check out the guy in front of the green and the guy on the back left, as well as the berm behind and back right.

Also note the hollows left of green, the depression running through it, and the number of stumps (trees removed) in the foreground.

This is from May 1916, when the course opened.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 10:47:04 PM by MikeCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1158 on: February 28, 2009, 11:10:13 PM »
Mike,

That picture is *VERY* Spooky. I had never noticed the people in it before. Give me a few minutes in Paint to diagram something.

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1159 on: February 28, 2009, 11:14:40 PM »
Mike,

Here's my thoughts on the evolution:

The red line is the current green cut.
The blue line the approximate location of the retaining wall.



Maybe bring the red line in a bit. That looks to be a "collar" type cut on the outskirts.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1160 on: February 28, 2009, 11:27:01 PM »
Sounds like you guys had a great time out there today.  I wish I could have joined you.

I love seeing that photo of 12 magnified.  You see so much more detail on the contours of the green and the sluceway in front.  However, I can't remember if that berm in the back right of the green is still there... I don't believe it is.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1161 on: February 28, 2009, 11:32:15 PM »
Sounds like you guys had a great time out there today.  I wish I could have joined you.

I love seeing that photo of 12 magnified.  You see so much more detail on the contours of the green and the sluceway in front.  However, I can't remember if that berm in the back right of the green is still there... I don't believe it is.

Geoffrey,

It's no longer there...but...the two trees directly in front of it are there a mere 99 years later. ;)

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Wilson,Smith,Crump,Vodges,Klauner -Original Plans/Topo POSTED
« Reply #1162 on: February 28, 2009, 11:33:41 PM »
Note in the pic of the 12th the field behind the train tracks.  A few years later a golf course would start there, the PECO employees course (Ross and Flynn) now known as McCall.

And the caption with this photo is a hoot, IMO!  Also note that this writer talks about this being 'between the eleven and twelve', instead of simply saying 'the 12th hole'.  



Here is the other original photo of the 12th that we unearthed at the FPC archives.

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1163 on: February 28, 2009, 11:34:47 PM »
Sounds like you guys had a great time out there today.  I wish I could have joined you.

I love seeing that photo of 12 magnified.  You see so much more detail on the contours of the green and the sluceway in front.  However, I can't remember if that berm in the back right of the green is still there... I don't believe it is.

It is not. Mike and I were discussing that on the phone earlier. Definitely not something I noticed until tonight.

There a few other salient points that came out of today's walk around:

2nd Green has shrunk considerably. I think it may even encompassed the area that is now occupied by the right bunker.

How the design changed from the Corson/Vodges diagram to what is in the ground, especially the 2nd tee and original 11th green.

Talk of moving the 7th green shouldend. Being one of the most dynamic and difficult greens on the course is not worth moving just to get back to the old routing. Moving the green represents a invasive move for a problem that may not be permanent. If the range can't be moved at one point, that's not say it can't be moved down the line. Moving the 7th green to make room for a rather tight fit of the old 13th just isn't justifiable, IMO.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1164 on: February 28, 2009, 11:36:49 PM »
Geoffrey,

It's no longer there...but...the two trees directly in front of it are there a mere 99 years later. ;)

Mike,

I have a feeling that the soil for the berm came from cleaning up the sluceway in front and it probably went right back into it when they made the changes to the course in the 1940's.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1165 on: February 28, 2009, 11:38:19 PM »
Geoffrey,

Agreed, but those changes were later than we thought...it was the mid 50s, around 1954, when the Nike base went in and Garrett Renn (possibly with George Fazio) did the re-routing.

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1166 on: February 28, 2009, 11:39:40 PM »
Geoffrey,

It's no longer there...but...the two trees directly in front of it are there a mere 99 years later. ;)

Mike,

I have a feeling that the soil for the berm came from cleaning up the sluceway in front and it probably went right back into it when they made the changes to the course in the 1940's.

Geoff,

I think the slueceway may have just filled in on its own. Sediment probably just built in the channel until not enough water could flow to keep it "active."

Most of the changes we speculate were made in the 1950s when the Army built the Nike site.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1167 on: February 28, 2009, 11:41:09 PM »
I need to bone up on my dates from your unabridged history.  All the more reason to get a cliff notes version online...  ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1168 on: February 28, 2009, 11:45:04 PM »
I need to bone up on my dates from your unabridged history.  All the more reason to get a cliff notes version online...  ;D

Geoffrey,

Check your IM's and let's talk tomorrow.

The meeting we talked about as the next step is getting scheduled to happen in the next week or two.   

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1169 on: March 08, 2009, 10:44:12 PM »
 I played there on Saturday (if I had your phone number Kyle I would have called you.).


    My question is "Where else in the world can you find a course that could be restored to such an excellent level with so little disruption?"
     I guessed only 4/5 new tees need to be added and under a hundred useless evergreens along with some scrufty underbrush and trees need to be cut down.


    My first comment was so economical that I left out the verbs!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 01:13:45 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1170 on: March 08, 2009, 10:55:43 PM »
I played there on Saturday (if I had your phone number Kyle I would have called you.).


    My question is "Where else in the world can you find a course that could be restored to such an excellent level with so little disruption?"
     I guessed only 4/5 new tees and under a hundred useless evergreens along with some scrufty underbrush and trees.

Mike,

Probably nowhere. 

I was out there walking around today...amazing place with incredible potential.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1171 on: March 09, 2009, 03:48:36 PM »
Just to keep it all in one place, some of Joe Bausch's most recent findings show that George Klauder had considerable design and construction experience, which is certainly why Robert Lesley appointed him to the committee with Wilson, Crump, Smith, and Meehan, all of whom had similar experiences.

In the case of Klauder, it appears his first experience was a significant revision to the original Bala Country Club course in 1911, followed by his being the primary designer as head of the Green Committee of the new Aronimink course at Drexel Hill around 1912-13.

Here's a pic of him with Vardon & Ray at Aronimink shortly after course opening;


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1172 on: March 14, 2009, 12:47:29 PM »
I had the pleasure of touring Cobb's a few days ago. It was, as expected, a joy to see the course firsthand. I look forward to returning sometime this summer to play and get to know it better.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1173 on: March 14, 2009, 10:52:05 PM »
I had the pleasure of touring Cobb's a few days ago. It was, as expected, a joy to see the course firsthand. I look forward to returning sometime this summer to play and get to know it better.

Forrest,

Glad to hear you had a chance to get out there to see the course.

I'd certainly be interested to hear your impressions, either on this thread or privately.

Sorry I missed your visit....perhaps next time.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1174 on: March 15, 2009, 12:24:05 PM »
Mike — The most dramatic portion is the series along the creek. I realize that trees have been a part of the setting for some time, but obviously new trees and much more mature trees have "taken over" some of the strategy. That is a shame, especially with the newfound "friends" of the Park who will argue against any attempt to remove trees, even though it is clearly needed for true restoration of some areas.

I am looking forward to a more in-depth comparison of the existing course with the original. It seems obvious that a lot of interpretation will be required in certain areas, and good balance between what was — and what will fly in this Century.

The hillside holes are charming with their often blind putting surfaces and lone bunkers.

Previous management seems to have taken its toll on the course — trees left to grow wild, no security during the winter (a four-wheeler had recently messed up a few fairways), poor maintenance protocol, ill-planned priorities, etc.  A sad situation, especially now that no one seems to have any money. The current No. 6 green work should ideally be overseen by someone who can bridge the gap between golf architecture, maintenance, engineering and history. While I am not 100% certain, it looks to me as if it simply is being winged in-house. Usually, that is a crap shoot.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com