[Rich Goodale]

Rich:

Just out of interest, when was that club history of North Berwick you've been referring to written?

Early 1960's.

[TEPaul]

Rich:

In that case (1960) I'd say the book might be off by 15-20 years about when the 4th and 15th ceased to cross over one another in play and when they ceased to play at those distance of 243 and 266.

It seems to me Dan King may've provided some interesting info (perhaps unintentionally) about why or even when the 4th and the 15th did cross over one another in the first place and when they may've ceased to do that---eg the evolution of the Rule in golf about where a player teed off from.

In the old days although rules were not standardized (they had a number of different club rules generally due to local conditions) I believe that in all golf the rule was that the player teed off very near the previous hole (cup)---eg first one club length and then two and then more and more until the 1875 St Andrews Rule read that there could be separated teeing areas at the discretion of the club's committee.

Also beginning in the 1880s and particularly 1890s everyone pretty much began to follow St Andrew's rules anyway.

If the 3rd and 4th greens and the 14th and 15th greens were where they are today back in the late 19th century in effect the teeing areas were essentially tied to the previous hole or cup somewhat at the hip, if you know what I mean.  

For that reason they may've just measured the basic distance from the 3rd green to the 4th green of 243 yards and from the 14th green to the 15th green of around 266 yards.

Not to mention the fact that back in that time the entire concept of par was just beginning to evolve. Doleman, a writer, first came up with the idea of par not in a hole sense but as a concept of what a very good player would shoot for a whole round.

So back in perhaps even 1895 there really was no such thing as a par 3, par 4 or par 5. At first around that time holes seemed to be  referred to as a one shot, two shot and three shot hole.

We do know from the wording of the question in "The Best Hole Discussion" in the London Golf Illustrated magazine in 1900-01 that the recipients were asked to list their preferences for one shot, two shot and three shot holes (not par 3s, 4s, and 5s).

Since the Redan came in "a good second" in the one shot category I would say at that time (1900) and probably for a few years previous to that the 4th at NB and the Redan had been shortened to something a bit less than they are today and had ceased to cross over one another perhaps because the new rule on teeing off had fairly recently been released, so to speak, from the previous cup.

So for those reasons, at least, I would tend to agree with some others above that, no, NGLA's Redan was not the first par 3 Redan and that has generally been reported for years that NB's 15th was.

Again, when NBs Redan was first considered to be a "one shot" hole (at least as late as 1900) I very much doubt it played at 266 yards. At that time it probably played around 175-190 yards or less.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

My book (like most old club histories) is largely a rehashing of the Minute books.  It says clearly that the current 4th was a new hole in the 1895 routing, and from the routing you can see that the tee then is at least 20 yards from the 3rd green.  The book also infers strongly (due to its chronological nature) that the movement of the 4th tee forward to deal with the "crossing" problem with the Redan happened in 1913 or 1914.

Rich

PS--what does when the book was written (probably 1962-3) have anything to do with the price of tea in China?
R

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Do you really need to know what difference it makes if a book was written approximately fifty years or more AFTER the fact of various events?  

And, BTW, the date of the book probably has nothing whatsoever to do with the price of tea in China but it might have a lot to do with your assumptions (or the club's assumptions) of when the length of those holes were shortened.

Do you really think when that "The Best Hole Discussion" was conducted in the London magazine in 1900 that those two holes played at 243 and 266? Do you really think holes that long in that day were considered to be "one shot" holes as the poll said in 1900 NB's 15th was?  

Furthermore, you say the book was largely compiled from club minutes?

Do you see anything in that book that's a reprint of the minutes of the club from 1914-1915 explaining that's when those holes were shortened?

If there was something in the book that showed that kind of contemporaneous minutes reprint info you wouldn't really be asking the question of when those holes were shortened or even if NB's redan was the first one, would you?  

Perhaps this kind of thing can show you the value of both real contemporaneous documented info and the value it provides to the art of accurately and factually "timelining" architectural evolution.

[Rich Goodale]

I don't much about this question I posed, but I do know that I know a helluva lot more about it than you do.

Rich

PS--If you want to lecture somebody, try your dog.  He might just agree with you!

[Dan King]

Interesting, as Macdonald was in Scotland in 1872, only a few years after North Berwick was enlarged from seven to nine holes and a few years before it went to 18 holes. At the time, the Redan would have been the sixth hole on the course.  John Kerr doesn't say much about the nine hole course, but I have the sense this was when the original Perfection hole existed and was the hole proceeding Redan. Rihc, Does your history book have anything about the original Perfection? Macdonald would have teed off six to eight club lengths from where then Perfection is toward the Redan. Only when he came back to Scotland later, would he have used what is now the teeing ground for the Redan.

Dan King

When I first witnessed golf in Scotland it looked to me like a silly game for old men.
 --Charles Blair Macdonald

[Rich Goodale]

Dan

In the 1877 routing, "Perfection" was a 175 yard hole played from roughly the middle of its current fairway to a green near what is now the 4th/15th tee area (there was a 180 yard Alps hole linking the Pit to Perfection).  The current hole was created in the 1895 renovation.

Just to add vis a vis your last sentence, as I interpret the diagram, the 1877 Perfection green was to the north of the current Redan tee (behind the wall) and the 1877 Redan tee was next to it with the hole measuring 210.

I think I posted this above, and hopefully I said the same thing there!

R

rich

[henrye]

I'll just throw this out as a thought (and it might not be a very good one).

Is it possible back at the turn of the century that a par 3 would be designed to require 2 shots to make it to the green if the hole was considered short, thereby only allowing for a one put to make par?  Is it possible that a reference to a 3 shot hole is actually a par 3 as opposed to our conventional notion of it being a par 5?

[Sean_A]

Rich

More tidbits for ya.  

Hutch describes the 4th, Carlkemp as a drive and pitch hole.  This would certainly support your idea that the 4th was a 243 yard hole.  However, it also raises serious questions about Redan beong a 266  one shotter.  

Hutch goes on to describe the 14th.  "Perfection, the name of a shorter hole on the old course (this would suggest that Hutch is talking about the 1895 course).  The hole can be reached with a drive and an iron shot, but a brassie for the second is more commonly required for medium drivers."  This would suggest that the Perfection described by Hutch is very similar to today.  However, and to throw some doubt, there is a pic entitled:
North Berwick Links-"The Alps"-Driving To Perfection Hole

Interestingly, Hutch describes the 16th "Two drives and probably a short approach are required to reach the green."  This suggests that the burn was quite carry - in the neighbourhood of 200 yards and that to reach the green on with the next was a fair feat - something not far off 200 yards.  

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks, Sean

What does Hutch say about the Redan?

PS--before the 1895 renovation, the 16th green had only one "table."  They added the more easterly (farther away) one at that time.  And, that was about the time that North Berwick was beocme known as "The Biarritz of the North......"

[Sean_A]

Thanks, Sean

What does Hutch say about the Redan?

PS--before the 1895 renovation, the 16th green had only one "table."  They added the more easterly (farther away) one at that time.  And, that was about the time that North Berwick was beocme known as "The Biarritz of the North......"

Rich

"...The Redan, the course turns to the south-east, and crosses the outgoing course (#4-243 yards seems like should be the crossing he is writing of).  The putting green is one of the finest on the links.  It lies on a plateau, guarded by a hollow on the right front, a bunker with a built-up face on the front left, and a bunker to the right beyond the green.  The hole can easily be reached in one stroke from the tee, yet on account of the difficulty in getting at it, it is not much amiss if holed in four."

Obviously, the hole has changed somewhat since Hutch's description!

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thanks, Sean

What does Hutch say about the Redan?

PS--before the 1895 renovation, the 16th green had only one "table."  They added the more easterly (farther away) one at that time.  And, that was about the time that North Berwick was beocme known as "The Biarritz of the North......"

Just jesting, Rich?  In Scotland's Golf in Days of Steam, Ian Nalder first dates this to the late 1850s. By the 1890's "NB had risen to be Scotlands premier east coast resort."

He also sugests that the phrase came about "possibly to be one up on Nairn which was called "The Brighton of the North"".




The thing about the green, that nobody ever talks about, is the huge swale in front of it and the bunkers set into the face of the first dune.  This feature would make more sense on a very long one shotter or even a quirky drive and pitch hole.  

But now I’m merely speculating.

Do any other Redans feature all this distraction well short of the green?

[TEPaul]

"...The Redan, the course turns to the south-east, and crosses the outgoing course. The putting green is one of the finest on the links.  It lies on a plateau, guarded by a hollow on the right front, a bunker with a built-up face on the front left, and a bunker to the right beyond the green.  The hole can easily be reached in one stroke from the tee, yet on account of the difficulty in getting at it, it is not much amiss if holed in four."


Sean:

When did Hutchinson write that?

If it was between 1895 and 1900 it would obviously explain why that London magazine "The Best Hole Discussion" had NB's 15th as 'a good second' as a one shot (par 3) hole of way less than the 266 yards that Rich Goodale mentioned.

And it would certainly put the hole well before the par 3 Redan at NGLA which was apparently the first Redan copy of NB's par 3 Redan.

It would also basically prove the NB history book wrong in saying that the 15th hole was shortened from 266 to a "one shot" hole or par 3 between 1910 and 1915.

[TEPaul]

"I don't much about this question I posed, but I do know that I know a helluva lot more about it than you do.

Rich:

It's just hilarious how you keep saying things like that to me. It simply shows either how defensive you are or how illogical you are in trying to deduce facts from available documentation from various people and sources in that early time.

The point is you can't seem to answer those questions and posts about the research material of it I wrote in the last 24 hours. Since you can't, obviously your only alternative is to ignore them and respond with a remark like that.

It's funny really.

So, why don't you just go back and deal with the questions and information from others of that early time (including the dates of that info) and try to deal with this question you posed on this thread intelligently?  

If you do that I think you will find that prior to the creation of the 6th hole at NGLA (very likely the first copy of the shorter NB Redan) the 15th hole at NB was a whole lot shorter than 266 yards. I think you'll find that prior to that NB's Redan was, in fact, a ONE SHOT (par 3) of 190 or less.  

Or failing that you can just continue with kneejerk responses that no matter what the facts are you know more about the hole than I do.

[Sean_A]

"...The Redan, the course turns to the south-east, and crosses the outgoing course. The putting green is one of the finest on the links.  It lies on a plateau, guarded by a hollow on the right front, a bunker with a built-up face on the front left, and a bunker to the right beyond the green.  The hole can easily be reached in one stroke from the tee, yet on account of the difficulty in getting at it, it is not much amiss if holed in four."


Sean:

When did Hutchinson write that?

If it was between 1895 and 1900 it would obviously explain why that London magazine "The Best Hole Discussion" had NB's 15th as 'a good second' as a one shot (par 3) hole of way less than the 266 yards that Rich Goodale mentioned.

And it would certainly put the hole well before the par 3 Redan at NGLA which was apparently the first Redan copy of NB's par 3 Redan.

It would also basically prove the NB history book wrong in saying that the 15th hole was shortened from 266 to a "one shot" hole or par 3 between 1910 and 1915.

TomP

I am just here to plug Hutch's magnificent book. Rich, your description of this book being a gazetteer is quite harsh.  The pix alone are worth the purchase price.

The book was published in 1897.  That is why I stated that the 266 yard version of the hole (at least from 1895 afterwards) must have been short lived - I don't buy the idea that a 266 yard hole was considered a one shoter when:

-the 4th was considered a 2 shotter and it was some 20 yards less in length
-the 16th was considered a long 2 shotter or more likely a 3 shotter and it was around the 380 yards - much like today
-220 yards was a very long drive with the gutty

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Sean:

How right you are to say you don't consider a 266 yard hole  a one shotter, and most certainly not in that day before even the haskell golf ball. However, apparently Rich Goodale is just not anywhere near deductive enough to undertand that. All he seems to be able to say given various documentary evidence that it very likely wasn't close to 266 yards in 1900 or slightly earlier is that he knows a helluva lot more about the course than I do. And then, of course, he just ignores that documentary evidence and questions about his contentions altogether. I guess I'd probably do the same if I was as undeductive with available contemporaneous evidence as he seems to be.

[Rich Goodale]

Rich:

Do you really need to know what difference it makes if a book was written approximately fifty years or more AFTER the fact of various events?  

And, BTW, the date of the book probably has nothing whatsoever to do with the price of tea in China but it might have a lot to do with your assumptions (or the club's assumptions) of when the length of those holes were shortened.

Do you really think when that "The Best Hole Discussion" was conducted in the London magazine in 1900 that those two holes played at 243 and 266? Do you really think holes that long in that day were considered to be "one shot" holes as the poll said in 1900 NB's 15th was?  

Furthermore, you say the book was largely compiled from club minutes?

Do you see anything in that book that's a reprint of the minutes of the club from 1914-1915 explaining that's when those holes were shortened?

If there was something in the book that showed that kind of contemporaneous minutes reprint info you wouldn't really be asking the question of when those holes were shortened or even if NB's redan was the first one, would you?  

Perhaps this kind of thing can show you the value of both real contemporaneous documented info and the value it provides to the art of accurately and factually "timelining" architectural evolution.

Tom

Since you got out of (or into) the wrong wide of bed today I'll humo(u)r you:

no.
yes.
yes.  possibly.
no.
"reprint" no.  summary, yes.
yes.

Hopefully this helps.
Rich

PS--one piece of advice.  Don't believe everything you read, particularly when reading about something so lacking in facts and poorly researched as the history of golf.

[TEPaul]

Richard the Quadruple Obtuse:

That last post just may be the height of evasion and deflection on your part on your entire time on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.

And believe me, I can certainly understand why.

Seriously, Rich, it's time for you to try to engage in something other than just middle school sophistry or anti-intellectualism.

[TEPaul]

The question is, Rich, do you now believe that NB's Redan around 1895-1900 was significantly shorter than 266 yards (like app 190 yards) and that it was in fact the first ONE SHOT or par 3 Redan, or don't you?  

Or do you simply believe that it was still 266 yards in 1910-1915 or even as late as 1932 because that's what was implied in that NB history book written in the 1960s?

If you believe that, well, then, talk about blindly believing everything YOU read!  

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

I started this thread because I didn't know the answer to the question I posed and I still don't know.  None of the facts and opinions you have regurgitated have been new to me nor more telling to me based on your interpretations of them.   If you could try to be helpful rather than argumentative then maybe we could have a dialogue.  If it's just going to be a one way argument without facts, well I'm not interested today.

Rich

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I'm really surprised at you. If you really think what you just said on that last post then why don't you just TRY to tell me or anyone else how a man like Hutchinson could've said around 1895-1900 that NB's 15th hole could quite EASILY be reached with one shot? He obvious didn't mean the shot was easy just not that hard to do distance-wise. Do you really think he would've said that then if the hole was 266 yards---a distance probably almost no one back then could hit a golf ball??

Come on Richard, that isn't argumentative or even rocket science. It's pretty much just common sense and I've supplied you with both the contemporaneous writing and timeline to prove that.

If you can't even understand those simple facts then I just don't see what the point is of ever trying to have a rationale discussion with you about any of this.

Try not to be so stubborn and defensive---just admit it.

[Rich Goodale]

Here's a couple of clues, Tom.  

1.  Maybe Hutchinson never played the Redan in the 1895-1900 period, and didn't know about the changes made in 1895.  They didn't have the internet in those days, and Hutch was stuck in London, 2-3 days horse carriage ride from East Lothian.  Do you have any evidence he (or CB) actually played NB after the changes?

2.  Maybe, even though there was a 266 yard tee, most Old but not yet Dead Guys (maybe including Hutchinson and Mcdonald) rarely or never played it.  Hey, GCA.com's most eminent historians, e.g. Tom MacWood, you, etc..... have no compunction at all about commenting on golf courses or golf holes they have never played.  Why should Hutch (or CB) be any different?

PS--You owe me for the lessons in observation and logic.....
PPS--if I don't reply to any reply of yours over the next few days, don't be offended.  I'm busy.

Slainte

Rich

[Dan King]

I think what we need is a timeline of The Redan, The teeing area, the course itself and C.B. Macdonald. Part of the problem seems to be we don't have enough surviving information about the nine hole course that existed when Macdonald first came to North Berwick. It seems highly unlikely the Redan ever played anywhere near 266 yards, as almost everything written about it through the various configurations calls it a one-shot hole. It isn't clear if the 266 is an exaggeration or a typo.

1790 First record of golf played on the West Links.

1832 North Berwick Golf Club founded. Around this time a six hole course was laid out only going as far west as the March Dyke (close to the western points of today's third and 16th holes.) The North Berwick Golf Club agree to play by the St. Andrews Rules (except for a special rules for removing stones within the Quarry.)

1858 R&A rule: Tee off between six and eight club lengths of previous hole.

1868 or 1870 (conflicting dates) North Berwick expanded from seven to nine holes. The Gasworks hole, then the short sixth hole was eliminated and probably the Redan was added as the sixth hole. According to an eye-witness account by Mr. Edward L.I. Blyth, the new holes to make the course nine holes were three new holes south of the existing holes. Perfection would have been the fourth hole, the fifth hole: a short hole to the southwest corner (where the fourth hole on the Ladies course will later be) and the Redan. So the Redan was a short hole from the fifth hole (that no longer exists) to the Redan giving the shot to the green more from the southwest than the current shot from the northwest.  

1872 C.B. Macdonald plays golf on the nine hole course at North Berwick.

1875 R&A rules allow Conservators to build special teeing grounds. Otherwise, players required to tee off within eight to twelve club lengths from previous hole. It is unclear if a teeing ground for Redan was built then or closer to 1882.

1877 North Berwick expanded from nine holes to 18 holes, to Eli Burn. The Redan would have now been the 15th hole, but it is unclear where the 14th hole (Alps/Perfection or the former fifth hole?) was then so it is unclear how far the shot was to the Redan hole, or if there was a teeing ground.

1882 R&A rules changed, with all teeing ground now marked with markers -- no longer within a specific distance of previous hole.

1895 North Berwick expanded similar to the current configuration. The distance for the Redan is listed as 266 yards, but that seems to be an exaggeration by close to 100 yards. In a pro tournament there shortly after opening the expanded course, half of the scores to The Redan for the top finishers were 3s. Ben Sayers later that fall sets the course record 75, making a two on the 15th hole.

1899 Arthur James Balfour becomes captain of the North Berwick Golf Club, giving the West Links added fame.

1901 London Golf Illustrated publishes "Best Hole Discussion" listing the Redan as the second best one-shoter in Great Britain.

1902 C.B. Macdonald returns to Great Britain to "gather material, ventilating my original idea with various old golfing friends."

1906 C.B. Macdonald makes another trip to Europe, four months, returning with surveyors' maps "of the most famous holes: the Alps, Redan, Eden, and the Road Hole."

1908 The National Golf Links of America incorporated.

Cheers,
Dan King

Of course I'll give you $1,000. The golf that you have taught me has saved me that much a year in doctors' bills, and I am perfectly confident it will add years to my life."
 --Robert T. Lincoln to C.B. Macdonald with a $1,000 subscription for the National golf Links of America.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Don't believe everything you read, particularly when reading about something so lacking in facts and poorly researched as the history of golf.

Excellent work Dan but I think this is one of those things we’ll never quite know.  On the USGA website you can view Hutchinson’s first version of his most famous book which was then titled “Famous Golf Links”.  1891.  

North Berwick is in there but doesn’t get a chapter to itself.

“Redan, well named, well fortified, and as good a short hole as maybe found anywhere.”

Before this he describes NB as having “8 of the 18 holes which are within distance of the tee”.  Some unknown and undated hand has scribbled in the margin “changed long ago”.

[Sean_A]

Rich

Besides the word and photo of Hutch.  You also have the 1901 Golf Illustrated article stating that Redan is a short hole.  You also have CBM listing Redan as 187 yards in his list of ideal holes he prepared for NGLA.  You are correct that the above isn't proof positive, but its fairly convincing evidence.  What sort of other evidence are you looking for?

Ciao

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