[Peter Pallotta]

What were maintenance and playing conditions generally like on courses that hosted PGA Tour events in the 1960s and 1970s? Did course maintenance practices at some classic private courses (e.g. Pine Valley, Merion, Oakmont, Shinnecock etc) tend to mirror those on the Tour, or were they generally better/worse than that? How about (thanks, Paul, for the post and the reminder) at the good quality public courses?

Thanks
Peter
 
 

[paul cowley]

Peter....I was a greenskeeper at Pebble Beach in the early 70's and can testify as to the maintenance practices there.

At that time PB had a very informal system of cart paths....trails really, because carts had just started to become the norm and paths were originally not part of the original design.
As such they were really a response to the wear patterns that occurred from use.

The rough areas also were for the most part un irrigated and the course had a much scruffier appearance....essentially greener when rainfall and the season made it so, and browner when the it suffered for lack of rain.

My main job there was "special projects"....which was for the most part improvements and repair of the course due to its use....overuse really.

Our big annual push from a maintenance standpoint was in anticipation of the Crosby Tournament.....although conditions were really not that different from regular play....roping gallery areas etc in anticipation of crowd control etc., and a little more course manicure.

Although I wasn't there, everything changed a seemed to change when the course was re worked in for the Open in the late 70's...I forget the year...when wall to wall cart paths were added and the course became 100% irrigated....along with many other "improvements".

I much prefer the older version and I'm glad that I'm not working there anymore.

Although Pebble never has been private, I thought I would add this as I think it might be of the level of course you seem to be asking about.

Hope this helps.

[Willie_Dow]

Harbour Town - 1979  I was upset that the 18th had taken away my favorite dig for hard shell clams, but I had a 1978 BMW 320i with a claim on a parking space next to the tennis court.  Today it would take a bus to get me there !

Arnie arrived with ? in his jet, wondering if the runway was long enough - but he made it, thankfully for all those watching !

How things have changed !

[Bill_McBride]

Peter....I was a greenskeeper at Pebble Beach in the early 70's and can testify as to the maintenance practices there.

At that time PB had a very informal system of cart paths....trails really, because carts had just started to become the norm and paths were originally not part of the original design.
As such they were really a response to the wear patterns that occurred from use.

The rough areas also were for the most part un irrigated and the course had a much scruffier appearance....essentially greener when rainfall and the season made it so, and browner when the it suffered for lack of rain.

My main job there was "special projects"....which was for the most part improvements and repair of the course due to its use....overuse really.

Our big annual push from a maintenance standpoint was in anticipation of the Crosby Tournament.....although conditions were really not that different from regular play....roping gallery areas etc in anticipation of crowd control etc., and a little more course manicure.

Although I wasn't there, everything changed a seemed to change when the course was re worked in for the Open in the late 70's...I forget the year...when wall to wall cart paths were added and the course became 100% irrigated....along with many other "improvements".

I much prefer the older version and I'm glad that I'm not working there anymore.

Although Pebble never has been private, I thought I would add this as I think it might be of the level of course you seem to be asking about.

Hope this helps.

Paul, the last time I played Pebble was April l977.  No continuous cart paths.  $60 green fee I think, we walked with no problem.  In the late 50s we would drive down from Marin County for a couple of days and play for $20, carrying our canvas Sunday bags.  It was a different time and a different golf course.  I really have no interest in playing there again although I'm sure the golf course is as great as ever.

[paul cowley]

Bill....no need to go back if you were there "once upon that time" ....it would only disappoint.
I played there again two years ago and can testify to that.

God I would love to do the renovation.

I think it was for the 1980 Open that the changes were made.

[BCrosby]

Peter -

This story has been posted before, but JN was talking at an annual meeting of supers a couple of years ago. He was asked how fast the greens were at Oakmont when he beat Palmer there in '62.

Jack said they was so fast that everyone was shocked. Dumb-founded. They had never seen anything like them.

Someone then asked Jack what they would have stimped.

Jack said 6.5 or 7.

Bob

[Rich Goodale]

Peter

Just look out some old Shell-WWAG videos, or those of the 50-60s Masters.  The greens were like molasses, and the rest of the courses were more like today's munis than Whistling Straits.

I first played a "Top 100" course with one of my grandfathers in 1958.  He was an Ex-Club champion (1913), and decried how lush the course was in 1958, saying, in effect--"It's for the the hackers on the committee who want to hit 3-woods for every 2nd shot!"

I also played Harbourtown and Pebble many times in the 70's and 80's and neither was anywhere as manicured and fast and firm as they are today.  I did Pebble (or vice versa) a few days after the 1982 Open, and it was the USGA rough around the greens that really made the course hard.

Not sure where this is going, but happy to share my experiences.

Rich

[Mark_F]

Rich,

I am surprised that you can remember the 1970s given that you went to University in California in the 1960s.

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

I'm just guessing.....

Rich

[Tom Jefferson]

Caddying and/or watching the San Diego Opens in the 1960s, at both the old site at Stardust CC, or the Torrey complex, there is no thing in my memory that suggests anything out of an ordinarily maintained golf course.  

I know that Torrey was closed only for the week of the tournament, not any time prior to, and I remember it as the same basic presentation to the customer as the week prior.

Certainly rudimentary compared to today's presentations.

Tom

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, gents.
Richard - I'm not sure where I want to go with this, other then to get a better/truer picture of the history of/changes to maintenance practices and playing conditions.

I've been working under the half-conscious assumption that maintenance/playing conditions were 'unkempt' until the Palmer effect (rise in golf's popularity) and the Augusta effect (pristine, lush-green conditions) combined to change things.

But I have no idea if that's true; and I thought that people here who'd actually played/watched these courses being played could help.

So far, it sounds like playing/maintenance conditions were 'unkempt' well into the late 70s, i.e. presumably long after the Palmer and Augusta effects had a chance to play out (e.g. long before then many people had colour televisions, so could see Augusta in all its glory).

When did folks here begin to notice a marked uptick in playing/maintenance practices? Did the Tour courses lead,  with private and high-end publics following? (Did the concept of high-end public even exist/emerge before the concept of pristine conditions had taken hold?) Was it post 1980, and simply a function of the money that was floating around back then?

Thanks
Peter

[TEPaul]

Willie Dow said:

".... but I had a 1978 BMW 320i...."

Bill:

What do you mean you 'had' that 1978 BMW 320ii"?

You still drive that scraggy little old German, don't you?

And if so, will you allow me to finally introduce you to this new technology called cell phones so you can call me to come get you when that scraggy old 1978 BMW 320ii breaks down AGAIN out in the middle of nowhere?

If you're going to try to take that thing down to Florida AGAIN I suggest you set aside about a month, maybe two, to do that.

And what do you call that original paint job on that car? could it be called "extra, extra dull WW2 german tank veneer"?

[TEPaul]

Peter:

Let's just say that agronomy, maintenance and conditioning is light years different on most tour and top scale courses today compared to what it was back in the 1960s and 1970s and the same things in the 1960s and 1970s were light years different than in the teens and 1920s. They could actually get some of those courses in the 1920s looking like the ones in the 1960s but mostly they had all kinds of niggling problems back then that grass growers today consider to be a snap.

They did not have a billion dollar agronomy industry back in those times like we have today either.

[Peter Pallotta]

TE
it seems to me that the agronomy industry (like pharmaceuticals and finanical services and fashion etc) both satisfies a demand and creates/feeds that demand, in an ever-widening circle (either a virtuous or a vicious circle, depending on one's point of view).  But it had to start somewhere. If, judging by the posts so far, that 'start' didn't happen until sometime in the 1980s, I'm wondering what the trigger(s) were for that.

I guess I'm trying to better/more accurately understand where we were so that I can maybe get a sense of where we're going.

Peter

[Brent Hutto]

Here's a couple verses from a song by Harley Allen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley_Allen that captures a little of the flavor of Tom's take on the topic...

I live a simple life
Couple of friends I really like
A little house outside of town
An old car that gets me around
Complications may arise
But I live a simple life

And I live a simple life
Cell phone when my old car dies
The Internet to show me where
GPS to get me there
Everywhere there’s satellites
Oh I live a simple life

[TEPaul]

Peter:

In what is basically considered to be very good conditioning today the real difference between now and the way it was back in the 1960s and 1970s and certainly back in the 1920s is the remarkable difference in mow heights of fairways, particularly some approaches and on greens today.

It is really something and it creates some very "tight" lies that most golfers struggle with on both long shots and short ones.

[Adam Clayman]

Peter, I'm alittle surprised Shivas has not chimed in, but all one really needs to do to see a living time capsule of conditioning in the 65-82' era is... wait fo it... ....
Play The Jans.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()