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Bob_Farrell

Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« on: August 05, 2002, 01:18:17 PM »
My club just finished a major renovation and used Ken Dye as the architect, which resulted in some good things being done, but overall a majority of the members believe he butchered the golf course. Four to six foot deep fairway bunkers, two redesigned holes that absolutely stink, one of which cost us the best hole on the course, false fronts on greens that effectively eliminate 15-20% of the surface as playable, and a number of fairway renovations that were totally uncalled for.

Has anyone run up against this guy on other courses and seen what he has done? One local pro told me they refer to him as "The Assassin" in the industry because he kills courses.

Hey don't look at me, I wanted Tom Doak or Stephen Kay!!! Anybody have any input?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2002, 01:47:19 PM »
Bob - I don't know what course you are talking about, but i have seen his work at Bedford G&TC. A nice, if not spectacular old Emmett and Tull design. It was not pretty and i really think he ravaged the course. His redesign of the 14th was just awful, IMHO. Not because the hole was spectacular in the first place, but because what resulted was disgusting. Where you used to hit wedges (sometimes blind) into the green, you are now hitting 3-4 irons since the green was relocated up on a hill behind the old greensite. Ringing the entire green (almost up to the fringe) is a nearly vertical berm. This to me seems ludicrous since long iron shots often run through the green and now will find purchase in this rough-laden 4 foot, nearly vertical grass face from which it is very difficult to recover, let alone get your clubface on the ball. A poor job, IMO
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2002, 01:59:26 PM »
KD work in NYC metro area

Round Hill
Westchester CC
Brae Burn
Bedford G&T
Old Oaks... in process
Sleepy Hollow... coming this fall, see Brae Burn for movie trailor, sure don't like the filled in right parts of the fairway on 2 holes at Brae Burn

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2002, 02:03:05 PM »
Brad:

Where is Brae Burn located?

Cheers
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2002, 02:09:42 PM »
Wetchester, right next to Century.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2002, 04:01:45 PM »
What did he do at Round Hill? I like that place--played it last year in the USSGA, I believe. I thought it was a Walter Travis course but if KD got his hands on it it hasn't been assassinated. The question is "Anbody familiar with Ken Dye?"

You'd think somebody must be--he must have a wife and kids like most people. I do know that Pat Mucci thinks he did something really aweful somewhere which actually makes me very interested in finding out more about the guy!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB1

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2002, 04:11:14 PM »
his work at Round Hill I didn't find altogether objectionable. I don't like his work on the first hole. Robert Trent Jones had been there before Dye and created his favorite type of par 3. All carry to a green fronting a pond, that never existed until RTJ dug it up. totally out of character.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2002, 04:14:54 PM »
I cannot speak to all the efforts that Ken has done with the exception of Westchester CC but I found his work there to go beyond what that layout should be -- an easy-going member's course to compliment the West Course. Let me say that his original designs I have played have been quite good to truly outstanding.

Among them:

Pinon Hills / Farmington, New Mexico / superb layout
Painted Desert Dunes / El Paso, Texas / solid routing

And most impressive is Paa ko Ridge -- just outside of Albuquerque, NM -- one of the 10 best public courses I believe one can play in the USA today. First rate scenery and a top shelf design.

All three of the courses listed are wonderfully routed and best of all don't cost you two Visa cards to play.

Obviously, there's more than meets the eye here!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2002, 05:23:05 PM »
Bob, et. al.,

Ken Dye provided a master plan proposal for Preakness Hills.

The club had indicated, in a written directive, that the membership liked our course and didn't want to see any major changes.

The proposed master plan presented was a radical alteration.

I blamed the Long Range committee chairman, another committee member and the superintendent, who went on the course and engaged in a feeding frenzy of architectual changes, when restraint should have been exercised.

The plan was not adopted as the committee felt it went far beyond the scope of the written directive.

As I have consistently posted from the begining, THE CLUB
bears the ultimate responsibility for any changes to the golf course, good or bad.  The architect is only an instrument of change, not the genisis.

Bob, your committee and Board should bear the responsibility for any disfigurement of the golf course.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2002, 09:23:21 PM »
SPDB:

You know that's a great point--that water hole at Round Hill! You must be talking about #11--or is it #2? I don't even know which nine I start on anymore!

But that hole certainly would not be something Walter Travis would do. I just can't think much about architecture playing tournaments, I guess.

You're good--sure are much better at picking up on these things than I am. I never thought of that! It's really not a bad hole at all--but it sure isn't something you'd think of from Travis.

We've got to get together so you can point some of this stuff out to me!

With Kye Goalby we used to pick up on all kinds of things--the only problem was we'd sometimes get so revved up over the architecture we'd forget our balls were sitting 175yds back there in the fairway!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2002, 09:27:38 PM »
Patrick:

At Preakness Hills there was an "assassin" architect and a "feeding Frenzy" committee on the course at the same time??

Where the hell were you? You're supposed to protect architecture from these kinds of things happening!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2002, 05:03:27 AM »
Pat is so correct about it being the clubs responsibility for all changes to the course though i would hope that some architects have the integrity to "just say no" on occasion.

seems like there are two ways the process can work that may lead to two different sets of plans by the same archie.
   1. tell us the things you would do to renovate/restore/improve our course

    2. or the far more dangerous idea laundry list provided by the members of changes they would like to see and "problems' with the course.

I have not seen "any" master plan for a golden age course where the architect stated they would "not be sensitive' to the original design.  Sadly though, most people do not know the difference and if the architect says it is they believe him.

One thing I would like to know is how is the architect generally compensated?  I have heard varying ways such as a set fee or even a % of the construction budget.  Hmm, which one of those is going to lead to more and bigger work being done?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2002, 05:17:07 AM »
Corey:

Even if you think Pat Mucci is correct on this one you really should figure out a less obvious way of saying so.

As far as I'm concerned, no matter what Pat says, theoretically there's no way he can ever be correct!

He rarely sees it that way though but I've got that slippery fellow figured out. There are those times when even he realizes there's not a single illogical avenue of argumentation left to him and at that point one would think he would admit he's wrong (as the rest of us would do) but does he ever admit it? Never! The only way you can tell he knows he's wrong is when finally there's silence from him!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2002, 06:03:10 AM »
Bob Farrell- This post smacks of many things but if you could somehow quantify why you (or others) think "it stinks"?

 You obviously have hidden the name of your club so you must not be too proud of it. Why was there a renovation and not a restoration?

If these other members who think it stinks, are just average schmoes, what makes them experts?

Why did the comm decide on Ken? Was it money?

From what I've seen of his work, if your club wanted something diferent, perhaps they should've done thier homework.

Please don't get my tone wrong, without any specifics the post just sounds like political posturing. So please expond.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2002, 06:20:14 AM »
I think Bob did give some specifics and do not see the problem with his post...  Nobody has questioned Ken Dye on his original designs in fact they have been well recieved by Matt who has played an awful lot of golf.  the question is how does he perform on restorations/renovation/improvement projects?  The only one I have seen is Round Hill and that was good but maybe that was because of the parameters set up by the club.  At preakness hills obviously some were not happy.  

It is very rare when a club can spend ~$1 million and then be honest enough to say they are displeased.  Most places will just say the work is great.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2002, 06:27:35 AM »
Tom - you're right, it's the 11th. My prior post made it sound like it was #1.  The hole is such a departure from the rest of the course, it is really jarring. There are more blind shots at RHC than I can count on two hands and two feet. The fairways and greens are all full of interesting knobs and swales. Then you come to this par 3 that is so obviously RTJ, it almost has a neon sign above it advertising as much. He did nearly the exact same thing to Baltusrol 4th. After you play the next 2 holes (12th - with one of the more intriguing greensites i know of) you kind of sit there and scratch your head saying to yourself "did I just accidentally wander off of this course"?

When you reach the 17th hole, you see can see the old 11th green.

Like I said, Dye's work to RHC is not entirely objectionable, but his work at BGTC is, in my opinion, horrible.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2002, 06:31:55 AM »
Corey,

Never heard of a GCA being compensated as a % of the construction budget - it is all generally lump sum fees these days. Engineers yes, but architects no. It's a shame really cause we're working on some major e/works sorts of courses right now and a % of that would be great!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2002, 08:12:06 AM »
I guess it this compensation practice would make more sense if the architect was in the dirt doing the work like Gil Hanse and Rodney Hine but again it is just something I have heard and id does not seem logical from the clubs perspective because it can just lead to more "suggestions" and changes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2002, 09:01:24 AM »
BMogg,

They are correct, it was 7 % of construction costs,
plus the master plan fee.

TEPaul,

I do have a family and a business that are my first priorities, which  take up a good deal of my time.  
You can't be everywhere you want to be.

I expressed my extreme dissatisfaction through a three page letter to the chairman, a friend of mine for forty years.

The plan was radical and would have destroyed much of the original Tucker architecture.  

A Clayman,

Bob's course is/was a very good one.
Challenging, yet fun to play, including three par 3's in a row.
The course would have been fine if left just the way it was.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2002, 09:59:28 AM »
Cory:   you said: It is very rare when a club can spend ~$1 million and then be honest enough to say they are displeased.  Most places will just say the work is great."

try 3 mil at Rock Spring here in NJ (Dye) - looks absolutely nothing like Raynor/Banks ......... looks like a moderization of the RTJ (and others un-named) from the 50s and 60s to me but was that a club decision??? perhaps - I would hope so.

Looked at it once and never went back.

There is an aerial from the 30's that I'm working off of at Essex County that has the Rock Spring course on the same aerial photo.   What else would you need for a "restoration" ....  except, the most obvious ......... understanding the original architect's philosphies .... duh! some call it PROPER research
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2002, 10:33:59 AM »
I believe that Ken Dye also did some Banks "restoration" at Whippoorwill.  I think that project is a mixed bag.  In general, the bunkering shows the steep slopes and depth characteristic of the Banks style, however, the biarritz I didn't recognize until I got up to the green and the redan looks to be softened.

Ken did a LOT of work at Westchester CC.  In general, he gave the members exactly what they wanted.  They choose to install "Tillinghast-like" bunkers on the West course since they couldn't go back to the numerous pot bunkers originally in the Travis design.  They got bunker-wol very deep bunkers that play more difficult.  They like them but members, especially the elderly, have trouble getting into and out of them.  They seem to me to be rapidly eroding around the edges from all the traffic getting into and out of the steep banks.  They need ladders or they will not last very long (sound like Merion?).

On the South course, he redesigned almost the whole course to create a 6500 yard test from what was a quaint 6000 yard break from the big course.  Its actually OK but a LOT of the charm is gone.  I'm happy he didn't change the uphill fortress-like par 3 on the back 9.  It may be my favorite hole on either course.  The members DID GET what they asked for- a RENOVATION not a restoration.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Farrell

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2002, 10:38:57 AM »
A_Clay_Man:

I WILL take exception to your tone with respect to your comment that I must not be proud of my club. I started caddying at Spring Brook CC in 1959 and was lucky enough to become a member in 1969. That means that 43 of my 56 years are involved with Spring Brook.

Why would I NOT be proud of the fact that my club has hosted 4 NJ State Opens, one State Amateur (and another in 2004), a State Fourball Championship, a Senior Open Championship, a Mixed Pinehurst, the Eastern Intercollegiate Championship, and local US Open Qualifying? A club which, to the best of our knowledge,is unique because it is the only par 70 or above course in the US with three, YES 3, consecutive par 3's. I was proud enough to serve on the Board of Trustees for 4 years and won the Club Championship once, losing in the final on another occasion. I speak of Spring Brook with much more fervor than I do of my other club membership at the St Andrews Golf Club.

So I consider your comment WAY off base!!

That said, what occurred at our club began as a restoration project, which when driven by an egotistical, money laden yuppy who headed the Greens Committee, changed character to become a renovation to a course that needed no serious changes. This individual selected Dye from a meeting with him at his winter home in the west, becoming so infatuated with him that he had Dye design two holes at his house here in NJ with 6 different tees on each.

Our club, like many has experienced a severe change in demographics over the past 15 years, the money of the financial markets literally pouring into our area. At present we have over 60 people on a waiting list when the first year cost of joining the club is $58,000. These people are not golfers, they are clubbies. They believe that anything the Board of Trustees proposes or endorses MUSt be great and they vote on a boilerplate basis. That is how the plan got approved.

As for my comments regarding the two holes that were altered, Mr Dye took  the best par 4 on our course, 417 yards to the smallest green on the course, and a par 5 of only 460 and tried to design them to reverse the pars on the holes. So we now have a 440 yard par 4 with a green that has already been revised twice since its redesign and remake, and is still canted at about 25 degrees which makes any ball immediately go to the left off the green. And we also have a 485 yeard par 5 with four fairway traps. because he had to create hazards to justify it as par 5, and a water hazard that he put in on the fly because it wasn't on the original plan that was approved. Playing from an elevated tee with a drop of some 40-50 feet from the tee to the landing area, the hole effectively plays about 440 yards, and that's from the back tee. From what I hear we are plowing that under this fall.

If you send my your address, I'll send you a copy of our membership book and you can call every one in it who is a golf member. If you find 10 of the more than 350 golf members who say they like the holes, I'll eat the book. And I don't think you'll find that people such as Bart Oates, Neil O'Donnell, the Presidents of a number of Fortune 500 companies, and a wealth of our other members are SCHMOES as you put it. They care about the golf course, they just trusted the wrong person.

I agree with Pat Mucci that it was the committee's fault, but the committee was effectively only one person. The rest of the Greens Committee and the Board of Trustees were too reluctant to draw in the reins on this individual despite constant complaints from the membership  in general.

So there's no political posturing here, just facts. My intent on posting the note was to see what others have met when dealing with this man, who I consider to be the worst architect whose work I have seen, and I've seen it up close and personal. Hopefully people will take note and ask questions and ask for references when dealing with this man. And except for the person who hired him for Spring Brook, I hope they call anyone in our club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2002, 10:56:52 AM »
Let's just say things are not looking up for that lovely hamlet on the Hudson.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2002, 12:15:35 PM »
Thank you for clarifying your post and I have no doubt that what was done to your course is wrong.

But, blasting an Archies reputation ...

Quote
So there's no political posturing here, just facts. My intent on posting the note was to see what others have met when dealing with this man, who I consider to be the worst architect whose work I have seen, and I've seen it up close and personal. Hopefully people will take note and ask questions and ask for references when dealing with this man. And except for the person who hired him for Spring Brook, I hope they call anyone in our club.


When you have identified the culprit as your own green chairman, is unfair archie bashing unless you know it was his unapproved plans.

Maybe Dan Kelly is on to something?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A.G. Crockett

Re: Anybody familiar with Ken Dye?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2002, 08:18:25 AM »
Ken Dye did a course here in GA (Acworth, outside Atlanta) that was originally known as The Boulders, but had to change its name to Cobblestone due to trademark infringement.  It is a muni, owned by Cobb Co., and is a terrific golf course.  As you play it, it is difficult to believe that you're on a muni in GA.   It is consistently one of the top-rated courses in the state, public or private.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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