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Jeff_Stettner

Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« on: October 09, 2007, 11:37:50 PM »
I have posted about this new golf course in central MO before, but having played it again I now feel this is one of the top three courses in the state. The golf course is fun. Conitions are great (firm enough for bounces good and bad). Every club gets used. Eagles, birdies, bogeys... all are possible and I cannot imagine getting bored with all of the variety of the golf shots required. On to the photos...

Number 1. A slight dogleg left with a blind drive over the crest of the hill. No need to hit driver. Hard the first time, a member's hole from then on.





Number 2. Medium par 3 with a large bunker left. Lots of room to bounce the ball onto the green. Green slopes hard from left to right.

Number 3 is a medium length par 4 with a center line bunker and  a green that has a wonderful false front. The tee shot on 3 can be seen in the background of the second photo.





Number 4 is the first real test, a long par 4 with a creek that runs down the left side of a fairway that slopes toward the hazard. The creek then runs in front of the bunkerless green. There is a large bailout to the left of the putting surface.



Number 5 is the first of three drivable par 4's. The aggressive line requires a 250-yard carry over water. Brian Noser knocked in on with ease...



Number 6 is a monster par 5 at more than 600 yards. It also plays into the wind. I have jit 4-iron and five-iron on the green for my third shots. There is a creek that crosses the fairway at an angle forcing you to choose the proper line. The fairway is biscected by bunkers on the second shot. Tough hole.



Number 7 is the longest par 3 at 220 yards. The green is bunkerless and can handle a running shot but is protected on the right by a beautiful specimen tree.



Hole 8 is the second reachable par 4 (and it may be too short). Creek, bunkers, etc... guard the green but it is only a three-wood for a longer hitter. Neat hole, but it hurts short hitters and play's easy for big bombers.



Number 9 is a neat par five that plays uphill. The second shot offers a split fairway around a deep gully to a bowl-shaped green. The payoff for going left (the narrower side) is an easy pitch onto the putting surface.  



The back nine starts out with a reachable par 5 (maybe the weakest hole on the golf course). A drive toward the tree on the left will leave a long iron approach to a green that runs hard toward the back. Almost all approaches end up in a collection area behind the green.





Number 11 is a longer par 4 that moves uphill around a center-line bunker and back down the hill to the best greensite on the golf course. Beautiful golf hole.



12 is a middle length par 3 that plays uphill to a green with two bowls. I wish I had better pictures...



13 offers a great view of the entire golf hole (a rarity on the course). It plays uphill toward a skyline biarritz green. Cool, cool, stuff.



14 is longer par 4 that has three bunkers in the center of the wide fairway. Play left and have a long approach over another bunker. Risk the right side (where OB comes into play) and the reward is a short iron to an open green.



15 is a deceiving par 5. The fairway looks tiny but there is actually a lot of room to the left over a creek that cuts in at 240 yards. The second shot is all carry to a green that slopes away from the golfer. There is ample bailout room for a layup.



16 is a the shortest par 3 at 140 yards. It plays to the largest green on the course, a putting surface that plays like three seperate greens. Wild contours. (no pictures)

17 is the last of the driveable par 4's (and the best). It plays 310 with a minefield of bunkers across a fairway that must measure at least 80 yards wide. Take an agressive angle over a set of bunkers and a kicker-slope will send your ball toward the green. (no pictures)

18 plays back uphill along the lake that comes into play on the tenth hole to a fairway that seems sprinkled with bunkers at random. The wide green is blind from the left side of the fairway but open on the right side (asking golfers to bring the water into play).


Garland Bayley

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 01:02:03 PM »
So you are saying this is on par with Bellerive and St. Louis CC; and that there is no course in KC that is as good?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brad Swanson

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 01:16:09 PM »
Doug Wright and I walked another of Art's new courses prior to its completion north of Denver several years ago with Art.  I believe the course is called Highland Meadows Golf Club, or something close to that.  I'm glad to see him get some recognition, as this course looks very nice from the pictures.

Cheers,
Brad

John Kavanaugh

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 01:24:41 PM »
Garland,

Don't be shocked..I bet there is a Nicklaus corse in MO that hat boy likes even mre than the above.

Jeff_Stettner

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 02:06:19 PM »
Garland,
In my opinion, STLCC is the best course in the state by a good margin. Bellerieve, while a strong test of golf, is not fun for me. I would choose to play Old Hawthorne over Bellerieve more often than not. The third course? Dalhousie, although I should reserve judgement until I go back for another round.

As for KC, everything good I have seen (including KCCC, a gem) is on the Kansas side.

Signed,

Hat Boy

Garland Bayley

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 03:09:46 PM »
How does Swope Memorial fit into your rankings?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Stettner

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2007, 03:15:33 PM »
Have not played it. And yours?

Garland Bayley

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2007, 03:32:32 PM »
Haven't played it. I just remember reading about it in Golf Digest.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2007, 05:13:05 PM »
Swope Parke is a good muni, and a great bargain.  It is a Tillinghast design, although I have no idea how much time he actually spent on site or how much he was involved in the design.  But it is not a great course and should not be considered as a contender for the top 5 in Missouri.

Nevertheless, if I lived in KC, Swope would be my regular public pick.

I do not know the private courses in Kansas City, Mo, but among all courses in St. Louis, Mo. I would consider St. Louis CC as the best (slam dunk).  After that I would consider Westwood, Glen Echo, Fox Run, Bellerive, Norwood, Old Warson, Algonquin, Normandie, and Forest Park - in that order.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 05:13:39 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Brian Noser

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2007, 06:42:22 PM »
This was a very good golf course you use all the clubs in your bag the variety is there and the challenge is there. It will need to be played a couple of times to work out some of the shots I did not fee comfortable with. Ie #1 and 10,11. to name a few. Agreed that   8 could be too short I believe Jeff hit a good 4 wood just short and I hit driver off the deck to the middle of the green. My Favorite Hole on the course was either #5 or #11 after the second play.. I don't know about top 3 as I do not have the experience playing all the good ones in MO(Stcc,Dalhousie, any in KC area) but It is very good it is in My top 3 that I have played in MO.

MBL

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2007, 09:02:25 PM »
Awesome pics, Jeff: THANKS.  I can't wait to get out there ... certainly see some familiar features from Art - I do think he is quite a talent.  

As for your top three - strong praise indeed ;~)

Jeff_Stettner

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 02:35:50 PM »
Bill,
Just out of curiosity, what are the features at Westwood that you like so much? This is a golf course that is never discussed...

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2007, 04:08:39 PM »
Bill,
Just out of curiosity, what are the features at Westwood that you like so much? This is a golf course that is never discussed...

Jeff,

Westwood has to be the course "most under the radar" in St. Louis and is a true hidden gem.

The course demands very accurate driving, although distance is not a huge factor.  It may only be about 6800 yards.  But then has many uneven lies on the fairways, to greens at angles from the fairway.  The greens are on the smallish side.  The bunkers are flat but below the greens.  The greens do not have a lot of roll but they can have a lot of tilt.

I like that straight and well placed driving is rewarded.  I also like the many challenges of playing from the variety of sidehill, uphill, and downhill lies.  Finally, I like that the small greens reward good shotmaking.  If many greens are missed, there will be plenty of bogeys, or worse if one is not a good chipper from rough.  Most of the greens have a couple of bunkers and then rough.  The only chipping areas are short of the greens.  It is somewhat of a mini-Winged Foot, but certainly I would not try to place the course on the level.

St. Louis CC is still the better course.  And although Bellerive is the harder course, if I was choosing where to play 1 round or where to play every Saturday, I would choose Westwood over Bellerive in a second.

The course has had a decent amount of tournament play through the decades.  In the past decade this has primarily been an occasional USGA qualifier.  It had 2 Western Opens (one in 1930s the other in the 1950s).  Back in 1987 it hosted the Missouri Am.  The 1954 US Open champ, Ed Furgol, was the teaching pro at Westwood at that time.

The course was designed by Harold Paddock in the 1920s and supposedly Tillinghast did some renovation in the late 1930s.  The clubhouse looks like the Wing Foot clubhouse.

The fairways are all tree lined and quite narrow.  It is so little talked about in St. Louis and yet such a fine test of golf, I actually think it would be the best club to belong to in St. Louis.

John Kavanaugh has mentioned that Glen Echo should not be missed.  Well I would place Westwood as equal to Glen Echo, as a fine example of classic golf course architecture.  Glen Echo is still a pure example of early 1900s architecture, but Westwood is a fine example of good 1920s architecture.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jeff_Stettner

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2007, 04:54:03 PM »
Thanks, Bill. I was out there a few weeks ago but didn't play. I can't beleive I have lived in STL for 4 years and haven't played Westwood yet.

What about Meadowbrook? You left it off your list...

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2007, 05:24:48 PM »
Thanks, Bill. I was out there a few weeks ago but didn't play. I can't believe I have lived in STL for 4 years and haven't played Westwood yet.

What about Meadowbrook? You left it off your list...

Meadowbrook is an example of the 1950s-1960s suburban country club architecture.  More length than the older courses.  Wider fairways, bigger bunkers, and bigger greens.  It is a lesser version of the RTJ style being done at that time.  Thus the holes are blander.  I also do not like how so many backyards abut many of the fairways.

I did always like the 18th though.  Playing that course in the 1980s with all persimmon woods, finishing on a 470 dogleg left with bunkers on the left at the bend making the shortcut very risky.  I always thought that was a very good hole.

I also find Forest Hills and the old Cherry Hills courses to be just ok courses.  All three of these were fine to play and could still be a decent challenge, but they are not great or even very good courses.

I moved to New England in 2000 so I have no knowledge of the new courses in the outer suburbs.  Such as Boone Valley, Persimmon Woods, and St. Albans.  I heard very very good things about St. Albans when it opened its first 18 by Weiskopf.  But, I have heard nothing since then.

By the way, while a student at Mizzou, I worked one year at the Country Club of Missouri.  This was the old home for the men's golf team.  Old Hawthorne looks much better.  I never did get comfortable with CC. of Mo, and ended playing most of my golf at AL Gustin.  The pictures you posted are good shots.  Thank you for this posting.

Not sure if the Tiger's are your team, but I am VERY excited about this Saturday's meeting between the #11 Tigers and the #4(?)Sooners.  I hope it is a very good game.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jason Mandel

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2007, 06:04:38 PM »
I had the opportunity to play Persimmon Woods last month, a course that Art was very involved in.  Persimmon Woods in my mind kept getting better.  The back 9 really featured some really really good golf holes, especially the stetch of 12-16.

I wish I could have made it out to Old Hawthorne, the timing didn't work out, but the pictures that Jeff have posted look great and I'm sure the course is all Jeff cracks it up to be.

I had the opportunity to meet and talk with Art and he really does know his stuff.  I think we will see the more opportunities he gets, the more his talents will shine.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Gib_Papazian

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2007, 12:41:49 AM »
Jeff,

You are right, terrific photos. Everything looks simple and tasteful, don't you think? Nothing overdone, just finely crafted and well balanced to the eye.

Thanks for the call . . . . . talk to you when I get back from Texas.

 

Jeff_Stettner

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2007, 12:23:17 PM »
Bill,
Okay, I am finally playing Westwood tomorrow morning. I will try and follow up with some photos.

As for Meadowbrook, the course was redesigned by Keith Foster and co. (read Art) and has some really good holes. Did you play it before or after the redesign?

St. Albans original course is pretty good and Persimmon is certainly a day well spent. It just amazes me how bad the public golf is, especially when compared to KC, Indianapolis, etc.

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2007, 02:14:23 PM »
Bill,
Okay, I am finally playing Westwood tomorrow morning. I will try and follow up with some photos.

As for Meadowbrook, the course was redesigned by Keith Foster and co. (read Art) and has some really good holes. Did you play it before or after the redesign?

St. Albans original course is pretty good and Persimmon is certainly a day well spent. It just amazes me how bad the public golf is, especially when compared to KC, Indianapolis, etc.

Jeff,

I last saw Meadowbrook in 1990.  It is good to hear that you like the course post-restoration.  The routing was fine; I had more issues with the blandness of the bunkers and the greens.  I like Foster's work, so I would not be surprised if I liked his improvements.

Do not expect to be overwhelmed by Westwood.  I think its quality is in its subtlety.

Per public golf in St. Louis.  I like Normandie a lot, but I can also understand how some do not like playing the course due to its poor conditioning.  As long as the greens are in good shape, for me the layout and old style makes up for the conditioning issues.  And it is a good bargain.  I also like the new Forest Park 27 holes, and I think Quail Creek in South County by Irwin is a fun course to play.  I agree there is not much else on the Missouri side per publics to be excited about.  I do not like Sunset Lakes, Eagle Springs, Tapawingo, or Pevely Farms.  I have not played Aberdeen, but I think I would like it based on the photos I have seen.  But my judgment must wait till I have time to get out there during my next St. Louis visit.

I use to be a big fan Crystal Highlands in Crystal City (about 30 mins south on I-55).  But it became cart mandatory during the mornings (when I usually play), so I refused to go back.  If this is not an issue for you, or if you can now walk, I would recommend it.

On the Illinois side, I would say the public golf greatly improves.  Spencer T. Olin, Annbriar, and Gateway National or all very good publics and all have decent rates (although not cheap).  On the more inexpensive side, Clinton Hills, Belk Park, Arlington, and Tamarack are all fun courses and worth the price.

And Grand Marias, in Frank Holten State Park (in East St. Louis), has a good layout.  Do not be put off by its location.  It is not as good as Annbriar, Spencer T, or Gateway, but it has a decent price, a decent layout, and is close to St. Louis.  Also, if you get the bug to play during the winter, and other courses are closed, it is often open.

I look forward to your comments per Westwood and any picture you are able to post.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jeff_Stettner

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2007, 04:32:54 PM »
Bill,
I like Normadie and Forest Park as well, but in other cities both courses would not rise to the top.

You lost me on Quail Creek. Played it once and that was enough. I agree with the other courses you listed as weaker. As for Aberdeen, it's pretty good. It plays firm and fast and is a pleasant walk but too many of the holes play exactly the same. I prefer it to Pevely, however, which is a five-iron away.

Interesting note about Crystal Highlands. The course is now closed to the public (and to the private sector) as it is now owned by Union Pacific and is reserved for company private outings. Art redid all the bunkers and greens two years ago and played a little with the routing. I have only played it once (on a Saturday, and our threesome was the only golfers on the property) but I really liked it. It would be my favorite MO-side public if it were still public.

On the IL side, I think Gateway is tops with Annbriar and Spencer just a notch below. Far Oaks is interesting, although I think a few of the holes on the back nine are just goofy.

I am looking forward to Westwood. Your description of subtle beauty has me excited.  

Jeff_Stettner

Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2007, 12:12:45 PM »
Bill,
I managed to forget my camera -- no pics of Westwood. But here are my observations.

Land -- Awesome, one of the better pieces of property in the area. Rolling terrain, lot's of room to expand (if they ever wanted to) and enough creeks and lakes to add interest where needed.

Routing -- Very good. The front nine flows well and the builds to a nice crescendo at numbers 7-9. The back nine, with the back-to-back par 5's is a lot of fun and offers some great scoring opportunities.

Conditions -- Great. Clearly one of the better kept course in STL, although the greens could be a littler firmer.

Overall course -- Very good, a notch above most of the courses we have already discussed. The hills and sidehill lies that you mention add an additional level of challenge and the bunkers (all of which were redone two years ago, along with the greens) are well-placed and visually impactful. The greens are often elevated, preveting the run-up (one of my minor quibbles) and have plenty of internal contour to hold my interest.

***However, the course is one of the most over-treed that I have ever encountered. They need to take a chainsaw to the place. Too often the only shot is dead-straight, and the past vesitages of cool looking bunkers on the hole surrounds are clearly visable through the now-dense forest. Many of the strategic shortcuts/challenges have been taken out of play, sad in the overall context of the land and routing.

I see what you meant about wanting to join the place. Westwood is a fantastic resource in the heart of STL.

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:Old Hawthorne (Pics)
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2007, 04:55:01 PM »
Jeff,

I am glad you enjoyed Westwood, and I am glad my memory is doing OK.  I last set foot on this course in 1991, and I have only been around the course about 8 or 9 times.

I can not dispute your opinion about the trees.  I think it is possible at some spots to be in fairway and have to play around branches.  I grew-up with that style at Algonquin G.C., so it never bothered me.  But I would agree that you are likely correct that the course could use some major chainsaw work.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

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