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JC Jones

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MacKenzie's most representative work
« on: October 09, 2007, 04:01:12 PM »
A result of the CD v CPC thread was a read of Ran's write up on CPC.  He states:

"However, would MacKenzie put forward Cypress Point as his most representative work? Perhaps not."

This begs the question, what would be his most representative work?  Which course says "MacKenzie" more than any of his others?  and Why?
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Bob_Huntley

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2007, 04:04:15 PM »
Pasatiempo.

Bob

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Matthew Hunt

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2007, 04:05:53 PM »
Royal Melbourne
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Bill_McBride

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2007, 04:23:06 PM »
Quote from: Bob_Huntley on October 09, 2007, 04:04:15 PM
Pasatiempo.


That was my first thought too, but I'm not sure why.  Why did you pick Pasa, Bob?  The terrain at points is wilder than most of his other courses - thinking of elevated #1 tee, the climb up #16 - but Valley has the ravines / barrancas.  I guess I'm not sure what "most representative" means.
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David Stamm

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2007, 04:30:15 PM »
Quote from: Bill_McBride on October 09, 2007, 04:23:06 PM
Quote from: Bob_Huntley on October 09, 2007, 04:04:15 PM
Pasatiempo.


   I guess I'm not sure what "most representative" means.

I tend to agree, Bill. I've only played Pasa, however, it seems to me that MacK was able to apply his talents to some pretty diverse settings and still always produced a stunner. I'm not sure in AM's case if there is such a course. His courses in California were much different from the courses he did in Australia. They in turn were different from what he did in the UK and Ireland. He had so many "looks" to his courses that it's hard to pin him down.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bill_McBride

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2007, 04:33:18 PM »
I agree, and it reinforces my #1 impression of MacKenzie courses - somehow he always made the optimum use of the land, and he had some good pieces of land to operate with.
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Steve Lapper

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2007, 04:56:17 PM »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Kalen Braley

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2007, 05:51:35 PM »
Interesting thread but I wonder if the question was intended to be slightly different.  It seems like this question wants to be "what is MacK's best preserved course that is very similar to what was first put in the ground?"

However if we are going to ask which course was his most representative, then I must ask, representative of what??  Don't we have to attach this to his principles as outlined in his writing?

Representative of blending with nature?
Representative of providing interest to the golfer with multiple plays?
Representative of incorporating deception and bold looking hazards to provide a percieved challenge to the player?
Etc, Etc
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David Stamm

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2007, 06:00:51 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on October 09, 2007, 05:51:35 PM
Interesting thread but I wonder if the question was intended to be slightly different.  It seems like this question wants to be "what is MacK's best preserved course that is very similar to what was first put in the ground?"

However if we are going to ask which course was his most representative, then I must ask, representative of what??  Don't we have to attach this to his principles as outlined in his writing?

Representative of blending with nature?
Representative of providing interest to the golfer with multiple plays?
Representative of incorporating deception and bold looking hazards to provide a percieved challenge to the player?
Etc, Etc

Kalen, I believe all his courses would qualify under these guidelines. I think that's what makes him if not the best, one of the 3 or 4 best of the GA. He certainly is my fav along with Thomas/Bell. But then again, I've only played their courses from the GA with only a couple of minor exceptions.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Garland Bayley

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2007, 07:01:09 PM »
I think Bob said Pasa, because Mac chooses it for himself in life, and in his book The Spirit of St. Andrews.

Another thought. He thought CPC was too severe, and was surprised that the beauty of the surrounds seemed to prevent criticism.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 07:10:49 PM by Garland Bayley »
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Andrew Summerell

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2007, 10:56:28 PM »
Quote from: Matthew Hunt on October 09, 2007, 04:05:53 PM
Royal Melbourne

THIRD - If one was needed.
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Roger Tufts

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2007, 01:08:56 AM »
Yeah i was going to say Melbourne too. But all of his work is different, and Melbourne is very different from some of his European stuff. I see this as one of those unanswerable questions.

You just cant lump it all together. Its like comparing TOC to... anything new, really. Its just a different animal.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 01:10:03 AM by Roger Tufts »
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Cornell University '11 - Tedesco Country Club - Next Golf Vacation: Summer 2015 @ Nova Scotia & PEI (14 Rounds)

Neil_Crafter

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2007, 03:34:17 PM »
While it is tempting to suggest Royal Melbourne West, the reality is that Mackenzie was not there when it was being built and the work there owes a great deal to his partner Alex Russell who was on site every day during construction, and to the curator/constructor Mick Morcom. Surely, in order to be his most representative course, one that he never saw during construction or once it was finished would have to be disqualified? To my mind Pasatiempo would perhaps best fit that bill.
Neil
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Kalen Braley

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2007, 06:18:08 PM »
I am inclined to very much agree with Neil on this one.

Not that its any fault of MacK, I'm sure he was on a tight schedule, but the courses he did in Australia seem to be closer to JN's style than a more hands on style.
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David Stamm

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2007, 06:27:10 PM »
Quote from: Kalen Braley on October 10, 2007, 06:18:08 PM
I am inclined to very much agree with Neil on this one.

Not that its any fault of MacK, I'm sure he was on a tight schedule, but the courses he did in Australia seem to be closer to JN's style than a more hands on style.


Kalen, I hope to god you don't mean Nicklaus? ;)

While it's true Russell should get more of the credit, don't sell AM short. I prefer to look at it as MacK conceptualized it, Russell, like Hunter and Maxwell, took his directive's and interpreted what he wanted the best they could.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Kalen Braley

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2007, 07:05:06 PM »
David,

Glad to see someone caught that..  ;D

I was thinking more in terms of not actually having any site visits in a similar way that JN supposedly operates.  But come in JNs earlier days I'm sure he was more involved in the routings and such right??   ;)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 07:05:22 PM by Kalen Braley »
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Garland Bayley

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2007, 08:38:46 PM »
Well maybe if they had paid him for his work! Maybe then he would have been more partial to it.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Stamm

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2007, 09:34:52 PM »
Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on October 10, 2007, 08:30:01 PM
I smell bias.


Well, David, perhaps if it was anywhere near the same as they he orginally designed it....... ;)
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jon Wiggett

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2007, 12:56:32 AM »
Although maybe not his greatest work, Alwoodley is a course near to its original design that emcompases most of the good Dr's ideals. He also had several years to tweak it following its construction. For me it is the classic MacK course.
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Garland Bayley

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2007, 03:14:19 PM »
Dave,

As I recall from his book, your hunch is wrong, especially with respect to his most Platonic. That would be Pasa as he wrote in his book.

The question was not most Platonic, but most representative. I still believe that would be Pasa.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Stamm

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2007, 03:20:41 PM »
To quote TD, I believe Pasa may have been his most personal, since he lived there and spent more time there than anywhere else.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Rick Shefchik

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2007, 03:30:17 PM »
Didn't Mackenzie die before he ever saw the completed ANGC? He might have supplanted Pasatiempo with Augusta National had he lived to see it, and tinker with it as he did Pasa, but his book was written before that could happen.
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Smoot

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Re:MacKenzie's most representative work
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2007, 03:31:39 PM »
Quote from: Shivas Schmidt on October 10, 2007, 08:29:23 PM
Lemme get this straight...

Dr. M professed a deep and undying love for The Old Course.

He wrote about it extensively.

He designed a course specifically as an homage to The Old Course.

After 400+ page-views, with all the knowledgeable people on this site, how in God's green earth can NOBODY HERE EVEN MENTION Augusta National as his most representative work?

Would Mac even recognize ANGC as he last saw it beyond normal maturation.  I played Pasa for the first time this summer, my first Mac course.  What a pleasure.  It just didn't last long enough.  I love the way Tom Doak is restoring the holes back to near original design.  Thanks to all who have raved about Pasatiempo and encouraged me to seek it out.
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