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A_Clay_Man

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2002, 07:25:31 PM »
Tim-  Have you ever spent time there at the Hotel? It hasn't been the #1 resort hotel for nothing. And certainly it's proximity to the Pacific is a major factor.

Plus, lets not forget who owned the company when it was conceived. Marvin Davis. Nough said? :-*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2002, 10:54:31 AM »
Paul,

Looks great from the blimp. The hole is as flat as it could be, the hole could have been so much more.

Ian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2002, 01:37:43 PM »
Based on seeing the new Golf Magazine list of places everyone can play, I'd like to add these to the list of most-overrated:

Grayhawk - Talon
Greenbrier - Greenbrier


and, as mentioned above:

Doral - Blue Monster
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JS

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2002, 01:54:03 PM »
Archie,

You beat me to the punch....DORAL.

 A few years ago a group of guys from our company went to Doral on our annual mid winter golf trip. We wasted alot of $$$ at Doral. The greens fees and rooms are very expensive. The following year we flew across the country to Palm Springs, stayed at La Quinta, played La Quinta and the courses at PGA West. The golf courses and resort in Palm Springs were 100% better, and we spent LESS $$ than we did at Doral.

The Blue Monster had enough sand in the bunkers to fill the rest of the courses combined.  Almost every shot including tee shots with drivers would end up with a buried lie.  The conditioning of the other courses on site were mediocre at best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2002, 06:40:44 PM »
Chipcoat.

Having played a few courses in the Islands I thought the Prince Course at Princeville was one of the best. Can you name me a better or tougher opening hole than that in the whole of Hawaii?

Ian Andrew.

You surprise me. You complain of a blind and confusing shot at Pebble's sixth and yet extoll the virtues of the Road Hole. You then diss the 8th at Pebble..... my God man I am ready to take up pistols at ten yards. To call the seventeenth as a nothing hole makes me think you are into the funny stuff during your time off.
  :)

Mr. Benham.

Have you ever played Cypress in other than a friendly game? Have you played it in the Crosby with a fresh breeze and a pro who needs you to make a par with your stroke so that he can pay his motel bill? In the past I have said it is the best 17 hole course in the world but to dismiss the place as you have elected to do borders on sacrilege. I do like your balls for saying so however.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ian

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2002, 07:13:30 PM »
Bob,

I like Pebble, its just overated.

The second shot on eight might be golf's best single shot;
the tee shot simply sucks.
I like the tee shot on number six, but where the hell do you hit the next one.
Don't you think 17 could have been a better hole, its a good hole, but it doesn't compare to other great threes?

You must remember this is "the best course in the world" according to one publication.

I'm a lousy shot, so I like your chances; could we do this at San Francisco so I can see the course.

Oh yeah, "...but I did not inhale"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2002, 07:16:55 PM »
Ian;

If you're going to smoke it anyway, why waste it?  ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2002, 07:22:14 PM »
Have not read the entire post -- got to mention the "famed" monster at The Concord (Kiamesha Lake, NY). B-O-R-I-N-G! How it was ever rated to the degree it was still amazes me.

Ditto the old Torrey layout -- but withholding comment on the new layout until I get out to see it later this year.

I'll come with a few more later -- got to run ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2002, 07:28:43 PM »
After seeing Golf Magazines "Top 100 you can play", Pine Hill solidly qualifies for this honor.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2002, 09:57:00 PM »
Mr Benham;

I think you have missed a very salient point of Golf Course Architecture: You can't put the 15, 16 & 17th holes at Cypress Point in North Carolina, and have them play over a muddy swamp, and get the same thrill as you do in crossing the cliffs at the edge of the Pacific Ocean! I'm also sorry that you didn't appprieciate the choices that must be made on the inland holes, they are some of the most thrilling shots in golf, no matter how easy they may seem, if you're  on top of your game on a windless day!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2002, 10:10:55 PM »
Pete and Bob,
You both get big gold stars on grade cards for this next semister.
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mps

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2002, 10:21:35 AM »
In the U.S. - I agree with the Colonial nomination - it's in the top 100 as Southern Hills' little brother.  Southern Hills is a strategic masterpiece & may be the toughest course to score on that I've ever played.  Colonial isn't in the same league.

If we expand this to most overrated course in the world, I'd vote for Carnoustie (#21 in Golf mag).  It's admirers claim that it exposes your weaknesses - but only if your weaknesses are with the long clubs!  It's a boring course with flat greens.  Carnoustie is a good course but I don't even think it should be in the top 21 in the UK.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2002, 10:57:38 AM »
Bob_Huntley

Personal preference on the Prince Course.  I don't think it deserves its consensus reputation as "best in Hawaii".  I much prefer both courses at Kapalua, the Challenge at Manele Bay and 2 courses on Oahu - Oahu CC and Koehle Clipper.

I think the Prince is on a tough piece of property and that RTJ Jr. did a nice job with it.  But best in the state???  Not in my book.

Ian_Andrew

Can't agree that tee shot on #8 at Pebble "just sucks".  It's true that it's blind and visually uninspiring.  But what a great strategic requirement!!!  The closer to the edge you dare hit it, the shorter your second shot becomes.

As to #17:  mediocre hole with a left pin??  I can't agree, I'm afraid.  I'll give you an "ordinary" for a right side pin but that's all.  It's really 2 different holes depending on the flagstick position.

As to #3:  It doesn't look like much, but it's a fine strategic parkland hole from the back tee.  Try coming into that green from the high right side after bailing out right/pushing your drive.  The easy approach requires a pretty gutsy drive down the left much like the drive and 2nd shots to #18.

Finally, as to the 2nd shot on #6:  What a quintessential "bite off as much as you dare" second shot!  I agree you DO have to play the hole a few times to get a feel for the right line, and it would be nice to see where the ball ends up, but the risk/reward equation is just so pure on that shot.

Overrated as "best in the world"?  Probably.  Overrated by a lot?  No more than TOC.
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3-Putt

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2002, 11:01:51 AM »
The Atlantic Golf Club.   ???

Mounds, mounds, mounds....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2002, 11:08:13 AM »
It's not a U.S. course, but, to follow up on my previous post, I confess to the heretical view that TOC has too many ordinary holes to deserve the raves it gets.  Great golf EXPERIENCE??  Tough to even match although Cypress, ANGC and Pine Valley are right up there.  Top 10 layout in all the whole world??  I can think of at least 10 others that I prefer.

Just like Pebble.  Many undeniably fabulous holes with 2 or 3 that would be huge yawners at Cruden Bay, etc.

Sorry to offend.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:08 PM by -1 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2002, 11:48:44 AM »
Bay Hill is not overrated.  The people who don't like Florida golf will never hold it in high esteem.  As Florida golf goes, Bay Hill is deserving of its solid reputation.  Nice elevation changes, unique and challenging golf holes (8th, 17th, 18th), strategically sound, excellently manicured and a nice atmosphere thanks to Arnie.  Not to mention, the course has pulled some historical moments from the pros:  Gamez's epic 176 yard 7-iron, Don Pooley's $1,000,000 hole in one on #17, Daly's huge score on #6 trying to drive its par-5 green three times, Tiger knocking it stiff on #18 and draining the putt to break out of his "slump."

Spanish Bay is another course that deserves more respect, not less.  So what if it's marketed as a links course and has some environmentally protected free-drop areas?  It has good variety, some terrific target golf on the back nine, great aesthetics, unbelievable natural setting, superior conditioning.

I think the grossest examples of overrated courses are PGA National (what a factory golf experience!), Doral is another assembly line of soulless golf, Pasatiempo ruins more good shots than any course I've played.  Southern Dunes in Florida is also highly overrated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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CHrisB

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2002, 12:11:31 PM »

Quote
Pasatiempo ruins more good shots than any course I've played.

Scratch_Nathan,
Interesting statement, but what exactly do you mean by this?  Bad bounces?  Shots that look good in the air ending up in a different spot than you thought they were going to?  Are there particular holes that are more "ruinous" than others?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2002, 12:12:18 PM »
1. Wild Dunes isn't that highly rated, so how can it be overrated. When it was highly rated, right out of the blocks, it was a much better course, pre-Hurricane. No condos and more trees.

2. Underrated, underrated...belfair #2. One of Tom F's best for sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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mps

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2002, 01:00:11 PM »
Chipoat -
Quote
TOC has too many ordinary holes to deserve the raves it gets.  

How many times have you played TOC?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2002, 01:13:10 PM »
I remember specifically being bamboozled by Dr. M's favorite hole in the world, #16.  Ripped a perfect drive over the aiming spot on the crest of the hill expecting to enjoy a fairway lie from the difficult downhill-lie but uphill shot to the green.  I ended up under a tree left of the fairway with no shot.  I think there are some nice holes at Pasatiempo, especially #'s 2 and #11 but I am disappointed when the visual definition of a golf hole suggests a target that, in fact, is not the best aiming point.  I guess I also felt the course lacked the defined shot values and consistent strategic elements I expected.  I don't consider a short course filled with wildly uneven lies (to maintain the difficulty) to be a pleasant design concept.


Scratch_Nathan,
Interesting statement, but what exactly do you mean by this?  Bad bounces?  Shots that look good in the air ending up in a different spot than you thought they were going to?  Are there particular holes that are more "ruinous" than others?
[/quote]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Nick_Ficorelli

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2002, 01:14:33 PM »
I'll chime in with Victoria National....still looking for the tee boxes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scratch_Nathan

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2002, 01:25:01 PM »
I remember specifically being bamboozled by Dr. M's favorite hole in the world, #16.  Ripped a perfect drive over the aiming spot on the crest of the hill expecting to enjoy a fairway lie from the difficult downhill-lie but uphill shot to the green.  I ended up under a tree left of the fairway with no shot.  I think there are some nice holes at Pasatiempo, especially #'s 2 and #11 but I am disappointed when the visual definition of a golf hole suggests a target that, in fact, is not the best aiming point.  I guess I also felt the course lacked the defined shot values and consistent strategic elements I expected.  I don't consider a short course filled with wildly uneven lies (to maintain the difficulty) to be a pleasant design concept.


Scratch_Nathan,
Interesting statement, but what exactly do you mean by this?  Bad bounces?  Shots that look good in the air ending up in a different spot than you thought they were going to?  Are there particular holes that are more "ruinous" than others?
[/quote]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2002, 01:46:13 PM »
MPS:

7 times over a 22 year period in all kinds of wind (and no wind) with both persimmon and titanium (early C.O.R. stuff, though).

Top 5 thrill for me was holing a 6 iron for a 2 on the 18th with a couple of hundred people watching (and applauding).  Unbeatable golf experience; at least 10 superior holes; at least 4 ordinary ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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CHrisB

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2002, 02:40:24 PM »
Scratch_Nathan,

I won't agree or disagree with your observations about Pasatiempo (I have only played it once, so I don't feel I know the course well enough to completely judge its merits), but I'll tell you this just FYI:  the fastest way to lose credibility on this site is to play a course only once (which it appears from your last post) and then make bold implications like it is one of the most overrated courses in America.  All the MacKenzie-ans and Pasatiempo-ans will simply counter that ol' Dr. M. suckered you and that a good player (which I'll assume you are saying you are since you put 'scratch' in your user name) should be able to play from uneven lies and choose the right targets.

I don't mean to come across as overly harsh; I'm just saying that you have to watch what you say on this site (I know because I've gotten toasted a couple of times myself! :) :P).

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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THuckaby2

Re: Which courses are the most overrated in the U.
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2002, 03:07:35 PM »
Scratch_Nathan did indeed get MacKenzied on 16 - a straight drive over the flag finds fairway - a hook over that flag can indeed find the trees. There is a LOT of "whimsy" on that golf hole... But it's interesting, most people complain about the green.

In any case, if defined targets are what make a golf course great for you, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that, we all have our own preferences, then yes, Pasa will be hugely over-rated.  That is a quirky, tricky, golf course that unfolds itself to you in drips and drabs... I've played it about 25 times and I still don't feel I know it.  To me that's a good thing, but I have plenty of friends who feel just as you do.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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