[Jim Johnson]

Patrick,

Does that mean that they now employ rakes in Pine Valley's bunkers? Judging from the photos in Ran's writeup of the course, I can't seem to find any rakes anywhere in any of the photos, but perhaps those photos are dated.

Looking at his photo of the bunker wrapping around the 14th green, judging from the depth of the footprints it appears that the sand there is perhaps quite hard, and looks like it affords some playability out of the footprints.

JJ

[TEPaul]

JJohnson:

As usual, Patrick Mucci is misinformed or he misspoke.

Pine Valley up until about six years ago neither had rakes on the golf course nor had the maintenance department maintain the playability of their sand areas.

Today they have sand areas almost totally maintained by the maintenance department although there has never been a rake on the course for players, nor, I would suspect, will there ever be rakes on the golf course for players.

Those on this thread who talk about unmaintained "waste areas" on golf courses are not talking about the same thing as actually sand bunkers (hazards). "Waste areas" are considered to be, under the Rules of Golf, as "through the green" where one can ground one's club.

[David_Tepper]

This topic come up every so often and it is usually based on the (false) premise that PGA Tour pros are so good and the bunkers are so non-penal that Tour players routinely make/save par out of the bunkers.

Sorry, but that is simply not the case! According to the current PGA Tour stats, only 4 players on Tour are converting their sand saves more than 60% of the time. The overwhelming majority of Tour players lose a shot at least 4 or 5 out of every 10 times they land in a bunker.

As I recall, the last time this came up, I was able to dig up some data that showed the sand-save conversion rate on Tour is lower now than it was 10 years ago.    

[Jim Johnson]

Guys,

In reality, I think I brought this up as a matter of course maintenance, not whether it could make things harder for the average player, or tour pro.

Whenever I play a course and get anywhere near, or in, a bunker, I immediately look and wonder how it can't be a bit of a maintenance headache for either the grass-cutter or the sand-pro dude. If the course policy is to leave the rakes on the surrounding grass, and the course has, say, 50 bunkers, and the average bunker has 5 (?) rakes, that's 250 rakes that the grasscutter has to deal with. Conversely, if the policy is to leave them in the bunkers themselves, then it's 250 rakes that the sand-pro guy deals with.

I guess the only answer to "both" is to eliminate rakes entirely.

JJ

[David_Tepper]

JJohnson -

The courses you play have 5 rakes per bunker? The courses I play are lucky to have one rake per bunker! Obviously, I am traveling in the wrong golf circles.

You could lighten the load on the grounds crew by simply having no more than 2 rakes per bunker. That would take a big bite out of the maintenance hassle.

DT  

[Patrick_Mucci]

JJohnson:

As usual, Patrick Mucci is misinformed or he misspoke.

Pine Valley up until about six years ago neither had rakes on the golf course nor had the maintenance department maintain the playability of their sand areas.

Today they have sand areas almost totally maintained by the maintenance department although there has never been a rake on the course for players, nor, I would suspect, will there ever be rakes on the golf course for players.

Those on this thread who talk about unmaintained "waste areas" on golf courses are not talking about the same thing as actually sand bunkers (hazards). "Waste areas" are considered to be, under the Rules of Golf, as "through the green" where one can ground one's club.

JJ,

As usual, TEPaul is mistaken.
You'll come to find that this is a constant pattern with him.

He's got so much to learn and I only have so much time that I can devote to his education

TEPaul,

Could you point out where I said that PV has rakes in the bunkers ?

In the early sixties I believe the bunkers were groomed about once a month.  That process now occurs more frequently, like TEPaul's mistakes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Coan,

Your post says more about the golfers who play that course than it does about the grooming of the bunkers on that course.

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB

Some of your lot at the Dixie Cup may have smoothed out lies, but none did in our group.  We all thought it nonsensical to have waste areas in which one could improve his lie.  I know the management of TR suggested doing so, but their motivation is to keep you happy, not honest.

Ciao

Thanks for reminding me...It was the management of Tobacco Road that requested we play the waste areas as "winter rules"...not the good people of this site.  My apologies.

[Jim Johnson]

Patrick, TEP,

You guys kill me.

 

JJ

[John_Cullum]

In the early sixties I believe the bunkers were groomed about once a month.  That process now occurs more frequently, like TEPaul's mistakes.

So long as we keep Tom Paul groomed on a regular basis, we can overlook the mistakes

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Huckaby,

When I see mid-handicapers easily extracting themselves out of fairway bunkers with utility clubs and from greenside bunkers with special wedges (lob, etc.,) you can't posit that bunkers present the same level of difficulty today, as they did 20 or more years ago.  Well, maybe you can, but, that could only be attributed to your youth, faulty memory or both.

Patrick:  pithy stuff, but where did I ever make such a "posit"?  Sure bunkers are easier to get out of now than they were 20 years ago.  But that does not mean we should stop raking them... as for most golfers, they do remain plenty hard enough.

Or do you like slow play and/or constant unplayable lie drops and/or strike, rinse and repeat bunker play?
TH

[Mike Hendren]

Unless the sand is indigenous, the absence of rakes is a gimmick.

[Mike Hendren]

Much like at Pine Valley, I presume Sagebrush golfers will be expected to courteously smooth divots and footprints upon exiting the bunkers.  

Jeff,

Apparently you missed the photograph posted some time ago showing the neatly sandpro'd bunker hidden deep in the woods at Pine Valley.

Mike

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