Baltimore/ 5 Farms (Tillinghast)

[mark chalfant]

I' ve always enjoyed playing here. Nice rolling terrain, some excellent and challenging par fours, including  the short  7th and 8th. The two par fives are intriguing, especially the #6  barn hole, a 580 yard dogleg. Any thoughts on how this attractive Tillinghast gem compares to  Winged Foot East or  Ridgewood ?

thanks

[david h. carroll]

apparently it doesn't compare well enought to be ranked

[Jim Franklin]

I have hosted a variety of GCAers and other magazine panelists over the years and they all seem to think the variety at Five Farms is as good if not better than Tillie's more famous layouts. The conditioning from 2002-2006 was a little suspect so I believe that is why it fell off the "lists". It is now in much better shape and very tough. As an example, a former club champ shot 94 in our qualifier recently. And trust me, he is still a great player and would beat 95% of the people on this site. Our course, when the greens are fast, is really tough.  

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: I think the TV coverage will enhance the course's reputation - I just hope that they don't take pity on the field and ease up on it.

[Jim Franklin]

Trust me, the course will play easier for them than it did for us. The rough was 6+ inches in spots for us, but will be a more manageable 3.5 for the old guys. The greens were fairly slick this past weekend, but will be slowed to 9.5. Oh well, I will have fun watching from Muirfield Village.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: Didn't they lengthen some holes for the tournament and now they set it up easier than they do for the members; strange.

[david h. carroll]

Jerry, yes a bunch of it was lengthened but not for the tourney and generally all of the back tees are used by members....they have been trying to save a couple of them from wear and tear here of late so they may have been closed when you played it.

I really don't think the greens have been very quick all year, including this past weekend.  There's no real fear of the ball getting away from you.  I gotta believe the Tour will have them a good bit faster such as they were in the MDGA Mid-Amateur a few years ago.


Agreed re: tv....hope it helps with improved perceptions of a wonderful place.

[Jim Franklin]

DC -

You know as well as I that the greens rolled fairly well this weekend. The Seniors do not want to play them that quick. I hit a putt from above the hole on #15 that was barely rolling and went off the green. They will either not use the front left of that green or won't have them that fast.

I will admit that the greens have been slow and wet most of the year (I guess we have had a lot of rain ), but they are now getting back to normal.

[SPDB]

I think the back nine at BCC is where the course really shines. The 10th is a very difficult start with a tiny target guarded by trouble on all sides. The remainder of the holes really take advantage of the natural topography and features (including a stream that comes into play on 10-12).

[Brad Tufts]

Anyone have any pictures?  I've always been intrigued by two in town/out of town courses belonging to one club, not to mention the one hole from the Roland Park US Open course still maintained today.

[Peter_Herreid]

Back to Mark's original question....

Since I have not played Ridgewood, I can only comment on Five Farms vs. WFE.  I would say that the greens at WFE can be, or perhaps often are, more treacherous in terms of cants, internal slopes and green speeds, but I'm not sure that necessarily equates to WFE being better or worse...

I certainly think the natural terrain at Five Farms is much better than WFE, perhaps the bunkering is a bit less penal than at WFE, and I would place Five Farms higher than WFE on the "fun to play" meter, but not by a whole lot...

I have not played Five Farms since the recent tweaking in prep for the Seniors tourney, but I would choose it right now 6 rounds to 4 over Baltusrol-Upper and probably 7 rounds to 3 or 8/2 over Baltusrol-Lower, for example...

Five Farms is, I suspect many on here would agree, likely significantly under-rated on the major ranking lists, but I also suspect that a bit more "national and media" exposure may change that...

[John Kirk]

I have played Baltimore CC once and Winged Foot West once.  I liked Baltimore CC better, but I don't believe one play is sufficient to reasonably assess a golf course.  Mood is too big a factor.

It's been a couple years, but I really liked the early par 3, with the green on a plateau (#4?), and espcially the Hell's Half Acre par 5 on the back (#14?).

Baltimore CC has great terrain, and some of the greens are ridiculously steep for modern green speeds.  Fun.

It also has a phenomenal restaurant.  Probably the best golf club dining experience of my life.

[Jim Franklin]

John -

Whenever you want to come back just let us know. The Ballyneal club champ is always welcomed.

[Ray Richard]

Brad T-Keith Foster did the renovations at Five Farms. He's got a few nice pictures at keithfosterdesign.com

[mark chalfant]

thanks for  all the helpful replies,

Sean:  I agree that  10-12  are very solid. i really enjoy thgleg right    on 12

Peter H.   thanks for  those details. there some very  bold  green complexes at  WFE, with perhaps  more internal contour, but both set of puttting  surfaces are great fun. if pressed I would probably choose BCC  6 rounds to 4 over WFE

[Peter_Herreid]

I think I would be about the same, Mark---6 to 4 (or maybe 13 to 7 )--in favor of Five Farms.  I happen to enjoy the somewhat more "pastoral" setting, as well...

[david h. carroll]

Brad T--the opening hole at Roland Park is not really "maintained" other than keeping weeds and trees from growing on the hill by mowing once a week.

For the Seniors, #3 will be the opener and they'll come back across the road to play 1 and 2 as the 17th and 18th.

Jimmy--you know better than to be above the hole at #15

[Jay Flemma]

I absolutely loved the East Course.  Of all the Tillie I've played - a great deal - Five Farms is my favorite.  It's the least penal, has the most interesting cross hazards and eschews the cloak and dagger claustrophobia of WF, Bethpage and others.

It has the most variety - IMHO - of all the Tille's I've played.

has anyone got a comprehensive list of Tillie?

P.S.  I was above the hole on 15...and took a walk of shame to play my next from off the green.  That will NEVER happen again.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jay, you asked, "has anyone got a comprehensive list of Tillie?"

Yes.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Not to hijack the thread, but I just read the 2nd volume of "Tillinghast Illustrated", the on-line magazine/journal of the Tillinghast Society  (http://www.tillinghast.net). Lots of neat stuff, and Phil's wide-ranging interview with Ben Crenshaw, including his thoughts on Tillinghast and 5 Farms etc

Peter

[Mike_Cirba]

Stunningly good, and can play brutally difficult.  I kept waiting for a dull or mediocre stretch which never came...not even close.

Despite the intensity of the challenge, and the added length (7000-plus to a par of 70 on very hilly terrain), even the most lengthy par fours include generous dollops of charm and distinction.

It reminded me of Fenway...and Aronimink......and even Bethpage...and yet I liked it better than all of those courses.    

They still need to let it dry a bit more, and there's still a handful of trees that need to go (more for aestheticism than playability), but I can't think of 25 classic courses better than Five Farms.  

Oh...by the way...Keith Foster did a terrific job there.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike, I agree whole-heartedly with what you said about Keith Foster's work there. In fact, I just interviewed him for October's issue of Tillinghast Illustrated where we talk about 5 Farms, Southern Hills, Colonial and much more...

[Jim Franklin]

Mike, I am glad you had fun and have been telling our people the course needs to dry out more as well. I also think there are several trees that need to go especially around #17 so that green can breathe.

[mark chalfant]

Mike
im glad you had a  good time. Five Farms is  truly a wonderful blend of  challenge and  charm. that finishing strech ( 1and 2 playing as #17 and#18) for upcoming Senior tourney routing  should be great fun   to watch !!


Jim  and Mike ,
Id appreciate your thoughts about  the set of   par threes

thanks

[Jerry Kluger]

Mark: I hope the course has been allowed to firm up, especially the greens.  The angles and contours of the fairways and greens is what makes its special to me and if they are allowed to soften the top players will eat it up.  To me, the worst thing that could happen is if  the players go really low.  If 18 (#2) plays firm then it will be a real challenge for them with some really interesting recovery shots around the green.  I hope to get up there and see some of it - anyone who hasn't seen the course should make an effort to do so.  Ben should be in heaven.