[Frank Pasquale]

I was playing in a tournament yesterday on a course that is relatively unfamiliar to me.  There was a 469 yard hole, and sometimes it's a par 5, sometimes a par 4.  I made an easy 5, but walked off not knowing if I had made a par or a bogey. The tournament scorecard had it listed as a 5, but it was a mistake, and two holes later, we were notified that it was a par 4.  This played with my psyche, even though it shouldn't have.

This made me think how cool would it be to play a course with no par.  The overall yardage would be 6,500-7,000 yards, but with no par.  Has this been discussed on this forum?  

Ideally, there would be a bunch of holes in the 250-310 range, and in the 440-500 range, to make players decide how boldly they will play, without par dictating their strategy.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Many years ago I once played a course during a winter warm spell in St. Louis that had already been closed for the winter.  We played that day without any pins and without any yardages.  (I did not even have a scorecard and had limited knowledge of this course.)

Although, I would prefer to have pins to show the hole location, it was great fun to play such pure golf.  I preferred playing a course without any yardages and without knowing any pars.  Being that I did not already know the course well, I felt that I would have been better off learning this course without ever knowing any yardages.  Instead I would have learned what clubs worked best from certain locations.  Then instead of being concerned if the club I was using met my preconceived notions of that yardage, I would instead discover the best club based on the geography of each hole.

I think the same concept would work even with yardages, but without any par.  Instead of one being concerned that it was bad to always be a few yards short of a long par-4, or good to almost reach a short par-5, the golfer could decide how each hole played best to his/her individual game.

[Tom_Doak]

Frank:

It's been discussed numerous times here.  Since par is all in your mind, I really don't understand what difference it makes; but since I like to mess with golfers' minds, I try to subvert par as often as I can.

The Legends in Myrtle Beach (my second course) had two holes back-to-back that were exactly the same yardage -- 470 -- and one was listed as a par-4 and the other one a par-5.  And the first of the two is probably the harder hole!

[Joe Bausch]

Frank, your post reminds me of how one of my golfing buds, a mathematician, tabulates his score after a round.  He is a bogey golfer and usually shoots right around 90.  Since he claims his arithmetic skills are faulty, he determines his score playing each hole as a par 5.  Less conventional, but it is practical, since most of his rounds are anywhere from 3 or 4 under or over his 'par' of 90.

[Dave_Miller]

I was playing in a tournament yesterday on a course that is relatively unfamiliar to me.  There was a 469 yard hole, and sometimes it's a par 5, sometimes a par 4.  I made an easy 5, but walked off not knowing if I had made a par or a bogey. The tournament scorecard had it listed as a 5, but it was a mistake, and two holes later, we were notified that it was a par 4.  This played with my psyche, even though it shouldn't have.

This made me think how cool would it be to play a course with no par.  The overall yardage would be 6,500-7,000 yards, but with no par.  Has this been discussed on this forum?  

Ideally, there would be a bunch of holes in the 250-310 range, and in the 440-500 range, to make players decide how boldly they will play, without par dictating their strategy.

Frank:

Par means absolutely nothing.  Low score wins. Par is set by the membership and it is strictly in your mind.  Who cares if your 4 or 5 was a par or not.  Did you win the hole or if stroke play did you win the round.
Forget par just play.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave
 

[BCrosby]

Frank -

You say that when you learned that the scorecard was in error, it "played with your psyche."

That would happen to most of us, I think. It's an interesting phenomenon. It's not to be taken lightly.

I think par does matter. A lot. But in ways that aren't entirely obvious. That's the whole point of Tom Doak's "messing with golfers' minds" at Myrtle Beach. There would be nothing to mess with if par didn't matter.

The only time that par really wouldn't matter would be if you played cross country golf where each player could make up his own holes. But hold the phone. Even there, I can hear myself setting up scoring expectations based on what my imaginary hole looked like. And being unhappy if I didn't play up to those expectations.

The more you think about the concept of par the more elusive it gets. Wittgenstein said once that the strangest things in the world are the everday things we take for granted.

Bob

[Jim Colton]

Didn't the Warren course at ND originally open without pars? I think that was the case when I first played it.  It made for some awkward post-putt chatter between playing partners. 'Nice bird...err, par'

[Phil Benedict]

In the lead up to the Women's British Open I was amazed by speculation that the women would play the Road Hole differently because it was a par 5 rather than 4.  I just don't get how something exogenous to the golf hole can affect player strategy.  

[Daryl David]

I was playing recently in a group on a course none of us had played.  We came to a longish hole and there was some confusion as to whether it was a par 4 or 5.  The card had both pars depending on tees and we were playing tees in between.  One of the guys couldn't hit his drive until we had determined par on the hole.  When I asked what difference it makes, he looked at me like I was from Mars.  He says: "of course it makes a difference, since I need to know whether I have to bust my tee shot to make four or lay back for five".  My turn to look at him like he was from Mars!

[BCrosby]

In the lead up to the Women's British Open I was amazed by speculation that the women would play the Road Hole differently because it was a par 5 rather than 4.  I just don't get how something exogenous to the golf hole can affect player strategy.  

I think it makes sense. Knowing par shapes your expectations of how your competitors will play the hole. If the Road Hole is a par 5, I will think (rationally) that my competitors are, on the margin, more likely to lay-up. That will have a bearing on how I will play the hole.

Bob

[Phil Benedict]

Bob,

I think you are right that par affects the way players approach a hole.  I just don't think it should.  I think the "rational" way to play any hole is to try to minimize the expected number of strokes, regardless of what par happens to be.  This is particularly the case in tournament play where you may gain an advantage versus the field by using the strategy that minimizes your expected score over the course of four rounds.

I know this sounds like economics but I went to U Chicago.

[Adrian_Stiff]

It's one of those ideas that I am sure if it was tried, within a short time the masses would moan and par would be added to the card. Par has a meaning if your handicap is probably above about 6 handicap, better players expect/ hope for 4s at the longer holes anyway.

[Richard Boult]

I assume that the par on each hole does little more than indicate the hole's scoring average.  Just play the hole based on yardage and setup.

[Richard Boult]

better players expect/ hope for 4s at the longer holes anyway.

and 3's on the 4's and 2's on the 3's

[BCrosby]

Phil -

Par should be irrelevant. For every conceivable reason it should not matter.

But it does. Almost always.

That's the mystery of par.

Bob

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Didn't the Warren course at ND originally open without pars? I think that was the case when I first played it.  It made for some awkward post-putt chatter between playing partners. 'Nice bird...err, par'

That was my first thought as well, I remember when I played it years ago there were no par designations for any holes either.  

I dont know if they ever caved to pressure, but I kind of liked the concept.

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