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Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perfect bit of Land
« on: September 08, 2007, 02:57:27 PM »
I'm reading 'The Way of the Shark' at the moment. Greg Norman talks a bit about design.

On one page he says 'Sometimes the greatest challenge is to have a perfect bit of land and extract the most from it.'

Two pages later he says 'It's relatively easy to build a golf course on a great piece of land.'

In the second quote he doesn't mention that a great piece of land will lead directly to a great course, but I get the impression that the majority of people think this.

I think his first quote is on the money. Is this the ultimate test of an architect, to build a great course on a great property?

What do you think is the ultimate test?
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There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2007, 03:00:14 PM »
To build a good solid golf course with plenty of interest on a dull, bland piece of land...just my opinion...I have never been in the field though.
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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2007, 03:01:17 PM »
Padraig,

I will be really interested to hear what you think about the rest of the book.

I read it this summer and would like to hear your opinion of what you think about the man after the book.

Cheers,

Brian
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2007, 05:31:39 PM »
I agree that it is a challenge to build a great GC that can live up to expectations of a  great piece of ground.  Lighthouse Sound is a good example.  It is on the Assawoman Bay near Ocean City MD.  I don't understand why it gets such good rankings.  It has some wonderful holes but has a bunch of ordinary holes.  The setting makes people think that the course is better than it is.
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St. John of the Cross

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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2007, 05:35:34 PM »
I think it is harder to build something special on a dull flat piece of land, ala Whistling Straits
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2007, 05:37:18 PM »
Padraig:

I'm not one who often agrees with Greg Norman, but I've got to defend him here.  "Building" a golf course on a great piece of land is not so hard.  "Extracting the most from" a great piece of land is a far different thing.

As to your question, the two situations are entirely different tests.  Neither of them is easy.  It's strictly a matter of opinion which is the "ultimate," but I can tell you which is more important -- great pieces of land don't come along nearly so often, so it's a real crime when somebody fails to make the most of them.  There are lots of courses on "B" land, and if some fail to inspire, it's not surprising.

Cary:

Whistling Straits did start off flat, but with two miles of lakefront I don't think you can fairly describe it as dull.  If you gave other architects the same license and budget that Mr. Dye enjoyed, I think most would come up with something okay.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 05:38:50 PM by Tom_Doak »
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Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2007, 05:44:01 PM »
Brian,

Greg is a very interesting character. I would have loved to have seen how his world tour would have worked out, great courses, truly worldwide, far superior model to the current world championship events.

I really like his design principles as well,

1. Least Disturbance
2. Begin with the end in mind
3. Substance over Style
4. Embrace the Environmentalists
5. Make the course playable for everyone
6. Treat every dollar as if it's your own

I really like the last one, far too much money is wasted at golf courses particularly established ones.
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There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2007, 05:51:21 PM »
Tom

I totally agree that the two situations are different, probably should have been clearer with the original post.

I hear the statement a lot about CPC that anyone could have built a great course there because the site was so good, but I don't think Seth Raynor's course, or anybody else, would have been as good as what MacKenzie did.
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There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2007, 06:00:19 PM »
Padraig:

Thanks for your reply.  I've got to read Norman's book I guess.  I'm particularly surprised at his Design Point #5 because the criticism I've heard most often about his courses is that they're much too difficult for the average golfer ... that was why Discovery Land had Tom Fazio totally rebuild Norman's unopened course in Arizona a few years back.
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Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect bit of Land
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2007, 06:05:10 PM »
Tom

It was criticism from Alice Dye which lead to this principle, I haven't played enough of his course to know, but maybe his earlier ones are not as playable as his later ones.

He says he has become more rounded with time and uses Tiburon in Naples as an example.
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There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso
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