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Mike_Young

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After receiving SEVERAL IM's and emails regarding a recent post "Golf Architect Resumes" I have more questions now than ever.

Is a masterplan golf course architecture if it is never built?

 If 4 guys present masterplans as sales presentation or whatever ...did they really do masterplans for the particular course or was it just basically a presentation.  

I have seen where an owner will pay a few guys to present him ideas for a course.  One will do the course.  Did the others design A GOLF COURSE?

If you design a bunker complex at your club and the supt builds it...is this golf course architecture?  

After the last few days, reading some websites etc I have come to the conclusion that the only thing that should count is what is put in the ground.....all else is hype....

Some may think I have my underwear in a wad...trust me I don't.....I am just constantly amazed at the BS in this business...

Am I wrong?

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Elvins

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2007, 08:47:10 AM »
Mike,

I think an architect is justified to put any of that on his resume.  However, any decent selection process should involve an interview and checking of referees/previous clients which should sort things out quickly.  
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Joe Hancock

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2007, 09:31:22 AM »
Mike,

If you aren't confused enough already, what about this scenario:

An architect(original architect of said club) is asked to submit a plan for a new short game practice area at an existing club. The club hates the design and asks a local shaper if he can build what they really want. He does a stick drawing, essentially, to show how the new area will function. He builds it without a plan, but the club loves the end result.

Is the shaper an architect?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ray Richard

Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2007, 09:45:52 AM »
It looks like they are all architecture, as per the following pasted from Wikipedia.


Architecture is the art and science of designing buildings and structures. A wider definition often includes the design of the total built environment: from the macrolevel of town planning, urban design, and landscape architecture to the microlevel of construction details and furniture. The term "Architecture" is also used for the profession of providing architectural services.
Architectural design involves the manipulation of mass, space, volume, texture, light, shadow, materials, program, and other elements in order to achieve an end which is aesthetic as well as functional. This distinguishes Architecture from the applied science of engineering which usually concentrates on the structural and feasibility aspects of design.

Phil_the_Author

Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2007, 10:10:54 AM »
Mike, you asked:

Q. Is a masterplan golf course architecture if it is never built?

A. Wouldn't that depend on what was included in the master plan?

Q. If 4 guys present masterplans as sales presentation or whatever ...did they really do masterplans for the particular course or was it just basically a presentation.  

A. Yes, they did as they presented "masterplans."

Q. I have seen where an owner will pay a few guys to present him ideas for a course.  One will do the course.  Did the others design A GOLF COURSE?

A. If what the others presented was similar in scope and detail to the one who was awarded the project and HIS presentation was considered a golf course design, then yes, they all designed a course. Only one design was bought.

Q. If you design a bunker complex at your club and the supt builds it...is this golf course architecture?

A. Yes. Can it be put on your resume? Yes. Can it appear as if you designed and built an new course? No. Can it be considered a course renovation? Minimally yes. Should someone who reads this type of statement on a resume call the other course and research his course renovation claim? YES, YES, YES!

Mike, your opinion is, "After the last few days, reading some websites etc I have come to the conclusion that the only thing that should count is what is put in the ground.....all else is hype...."

I disagree with this. Golf course design is no different from any other branch of architecture. Most building projects have numerous proposed designs that aren't accepted by the owner... are these any less architectural designs because they weren't bought?

As far as the ability of a person to label himself as a golf course architect based upon minimal work experience or design acceptances, consider another example from the construction trades.

I am a liscensed electrician. In the past I have contracted jobs on a number of mid-level construction projects where as part of my winning bid I was required to design and specify the entire building lighting systems.

Does this make me a lighting engineer? No. Does it allow me to advertsie as a a lighting systems designer? Yes. Having done so on a number of projects does it automatically qualify my work as being any good? No. Should someone considering hiring me to do an electrical project that includes systems designs such as lighting, distribution, energy management, alarms, etc... check out the finished product of past work I have done? YES! YES! YES!

I think the major problem in areas such as this are the result of the customer's not doing needed due diligence on those he is considering for the job. This alone would eliminate much of the problems that you are concerned about.

Of course it also might mean that a C.C. Worthington wouldn't take a chance that his good friend could design and build a world-class golf course for him, and so Shawnee and the career of A.W. Tillinghast would never have happened...

These are just my opinions...  ;D

« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 10:11:35 AM by Philip Young »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2007, 10:28:09 AM »
Mike,

Having been involved with this confusing issue on many levels, I share your wonderment, but suggest that you would be better served be having Pecan Waffles at Waffle House this morning ;D

But, I have given this some thought over the last few days.  In general, I recall an ASGCA membership application I authored saying the gca was "the one most responsible for the final form of the golf course." I am not sure they still use this, but it was intended to allow field centric gca's to get credit towards membership, if that's how they worked rather than plans and occaisional visits.

Thus, if ASGCA actually requires something to be built, it makes sense that something like a green or tee should be actually built for a gca to claim any credit at a course, and then, for history sake, it ought to be a fairly specific claim.  I know my resume says things like "Rebuilt 2 greens, 1985.  Perhaps it should say, "Rebuilt 12th and 18th green in 1985."

Not sure about what happens when a course/feature is rebuiit one year later, because of new owner or committee, poor agronomics or just plain poor design, which sometimes happens.  I know I wouldn't put it on my resume.  And, 100 years later, Ross descendants and fans probably still wants Oakland Hills on his resume, depspite changes.  Everything in between is a judgement call.  

Sales presentations should never be listed. Master Plans, if paid for, should be listed as such, or perhaps as "consulting."  If master plan work takes place later without any supervision of the gca, it should be left off resume lists, with the club or shaper probably credited for things built only generally to plan.  

I actually wouldn't want any credit for a plan built without my final plan or supervision.  Not only is it not likely to be below my standards and liking, but there have been rare cases where gca's have later been sued by a club when such a plan was built, and retaining walls (never engineered by the gca) fell down, people drove off cart paths, or greens failed.  So, most of my master plans and contracts have huge disclaimers about using them, and put the liability on the Owner for such use without my further involvement.

I sense that your concern with this issue isn't so much credit per se, but the number of good jobs that seem to go to new guys in the business who are, like we once were, full of bluster and good salesmanship, maybe some good ideas, and precious little experience.

So yes, this business is built on BS....and you are not wrong.  Its just hard enough to take it when the big guys say the same thing as you do and it sells much better.  Like you, it hurts me when the "little guys" say much the same thing and it sells better because of a new twist or label - I have "lost" or truthfully, failed to make an effective presentation to other gca's selling  "traditionalism," "minimalism, "historian," "photorealisitic renderings," and even "civil engineering, "full time on site," "design-build", "save money on plans" "don't need no stinking gca", "youthful enthusiasm" and even for some courses I did years ago when the guy didn't like one hole.

Truth is, I need to remind myself that I failed to make a sale, rather than someone else got it with "better BS."  I think establishing a personal connection to the person (usually well in advance, if possible) making the decision gets more job than a padded or even accurate resume.......that, and clearly explaining the benefits of our services, which quite frankly, in a crowded field, don't always stand out as much as some of the more targeted experiences above might.

Short version:  This is one tough biz!  You must do okay, having been in it over 20 years.....we will see how many of the young whiz kids who got in it during the recent boom last.....although I think that Tiger guy probably will do okay.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2007, 10:32:06 AM »
Phillip,

I disagree with many of your assertions, and our posts crossed.  The reason I do is that a sales master plan is a far cry from what gets built, even for the gca who wins the commission.  GCA's don't really get paid for "ideas" they get paid for getting to the final product, and should only take credit for the ones that get built.

Similar in scope and detail should allow credit?  Its the details that make the difference!  (i.e., its a far cry from a historian saying "Make that a bunker that looks like a Tillie bunker (whatever that might be for Tillie!) and actually building a bunker that looks like a Tillie bunker.)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 11:11:08 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Don_Mahaffey

Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2007, 11:27:44 AM »
I could be wrong, but I doubt you'll find many experienced Architects call drawing something, or making a presentation, golf course architecture. Coming up with the plan, overseeing and participating in the creation, and ultimately delivering a functional and artistic finished product to the client is golf course architecture in my book.

And yes Joe, in my book what you did was architecture. You, with the client developed a plan for something and then you built it.

Taking the plan from theory to reality is architecture.


Joe Hancock

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2007, 12:25:03 PM »

And yes Joe, in my book what you did was architecture. You, with the client developed a plan for something and then you built it.

Taking the plan from theory to reality is architecture.



It was just a scenario..... ;)

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Phil_the_Author

Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2007, 12:46:27 PM »
Jeff, you mentioned that you disagreed with some of my answers to Mike's questions. You said that, "The reason I do is that a sales master plan is a far cry from what gets built, even for the gca who wins the commission..."  

Look again at what I wrote. Mike asked "Is a masterplan golf course architecture if it is never built?" I answered, "Wouldn't that depend on what was included in the master plan?" Again he asked, "If 4 guys present masterplans as sales presentation or whatever ...did they really do masterplans for the particular course or was it just basically a presentation." I answered, "Yes, they did as they presented "masterplans."

Where in any of that did I state that the action of creating a "master plan" and giving one to a potential customer as part of a presentation equates to what is purchased and actually built?

I likened it to an architect providing detailed drawings for a proposed building. Isn't that architecture even where the structure wasn't built?

You again took issue with another of my answer's. "Similar in scope and detail should allow credit?  Its the details that make the difference!"

What did Mike ask, "I have seen where an owner will pay a few guys to present him ideas for a course.  One will do the course.  Did the others design A GOLF COURSE?"

Where in my answer that, "If what the others presented was similar in scope and detail to the one who was awarded the project and HIS presentation was considered a golf course design, then yes, they all designed a course. Only one design was bought," did I state that the others should get credit?

Actually all I said was that if you consider the presentation by the winner to have been a design and the ones presented by others were "similar in scope and detail" then they should be recognized as having been the same thing. If one is a course design then so is the other. The difference is simply that one was accepted and the other wasn't.

Should someone be advertising as part of a CV that they have produced hundreds of masterplans and designs for golf courses when he never was awarded any of them? Only if he is stupid.

I think Mike is trying to raise some issues that are quite important and that his tact in how he is doing so is getting in the way of what he is trying to say.

Mike is a call them out sort of guy and even without knowing the particulars I would most likely back up his opinions because I know Mike and really respect his beliefs.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:50:10 PM by Philip Young »

Forrest Richardson

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2007, 01:16:55 PM »
Some of Mr. Wright's most beloved and celebrated work was his "master planning" projects. The great Arizona State Capital — never built, but loved and despised by many — is among those.

http://www.waymarking.com/wm/details.aspx?f=1&guid=61aea7d8-782e-4205-82cc-82db68286ff9

I believe the distinction here is that to practice golf course architecture, one is probably best equipped with a full range of projects; completed courses being a requirement. But, to make some line in the sand about planning or concept or schematics NOT being integral, is not a good path. These aspects are essential, just as the ability to know a level of agronomic, drainage, financial, etc are also essential.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 01:20:24 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Kyle Harris

Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2007, 01:44:50 PM »
I developed a historical analysis of Penn State's White Course for the university and handed it to them to do with as they pleased. There is some work going on for the White course in terms of green expansion and tree removal, but whether or not they see my plan through to completion is on them.

I don't consider that work to be architecture, though I did for a brief period of time.

I still have much to learn though, outside the artistic side.

First is the project management aspect of a design, which is why my degree concentration was Project Management. I can make a reasonably good routing, design a great green that fits perfectly with the surrounds and create interesting hazards.

All that amounts to nothing if I can't coordinate the operation that actually builds and creates those features. I know next to nothing about the specific aspects of building a golf course, though I do have the background to put it all together. God-willing, I want to get the chance to learn and use my general logistical and project management skills in concert with my artistic to build a golf course.

When I do that, then I feel I can call myself a golf course architect. But for now, I'm a student/intern/historian of golf course design.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2007, 02:11:28 PM »
Phillip,

No one has ever accused me of letting tact get in the way of making my point......so Mike is one up (or down!) to me.

You never said designing a course was the same as accepting a design and getting it built.   But, you maintain its a design nonetheless.  Basically, if you allow any design built or unbuilt to be considered a design, I am sure there are 1500 members here who could claim credit for their daydreams and noodles and doodles, no?

I know how many iterations a final design go through before construction, so at best, it would be a "preliminary design" and, I have seen some gca's list those. I agree with you its not so smart, though.

Mike is asking a very practical question about what pracitsing gca's should be allowed to list on their resumes.  Again, I understand your point, but don't think interviewing for a job or anything that goes along with it qualifies as design to a "real" gca.  Just presentation and interview.

Forrest,

I started thinking of FLW as well. His city concepts were aimed at changing the world, even if not built as was.  I can't think of a gca concept course that would do the same, although perhaps Caymen, First Tee and other alternate courses might, as would NGLA.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2007, 03:32:52 PM »
Jeff,
We had our club championship today so no waffle this morning...been on course all day...
But just read some of the comments and after playing with one young man today that just declared as a professional I think I better understand how this site defines golf architects....
Here are some correlations...
young man declares professional but can't win his club championship..yes he is a professional golfer playing for a living using his sponsor's money.....how long??? don't know....
I have just decided I am a NCAA division 1 Basketball coach....I just wrote a season plan for a team....Oh...I need to be hired....maybe if one of the coaches will elt me sit on his bench I can put that on my resume....
Oh..just decided I am a political speech writer.....hired gun...either side....pen will flow.....

Anyway..could go on...BUT IMHO the only thing that counts on the resume is what has been put in the ground.....ten years from now no one will care how many master plans someone has....just actual courses.....I hear too much on here about this dead guy came over and worked on the other dead guy's course so did Dead guy A design it or did Dead guy B design it.....

While FR is correct as to the importance of drawings and his analogy of FLW.....if there is nothing in the ground to go with it then something aint right.....JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2007, 03:48:40 PM »
My take on the matter (not that I have any standing to opine) but still...

If you conceived the plan, and participated integrally in getting it built in the ground, you are an architect.

If you conceive great paper plans, no matter how detailed, including grading plans, irrigation schemes, specification of materials to be used, etc., but do not supervise or do the work in the ground, you are a designer.

If you only build other's plans according to their supervision, you are a constructor.  

The sub-categories of designer and constructor distinctions can be very talented in their limitted scope.  But, an architect has to 'get-r-done'  conceiving design concept, field supervision, and overall planning including integral participation in permitting, etc.

Take Dan and Dave, the Bunkerhill Boys.  From my understanding of their career, they were constructors until they did their first on their own, "Delaware Springs".  Then they did "Wild Horse".  That officially made them golf course architects, no longer only constructors, in my view.

I don't say that the architect has to be the most drawing oriented craftsman.  He has to be able to conceive the holes from his mind, and translate them into the dirt, by active participation in the conception and construction.  Sometimes he can hire out the drawing talent to a designer to do quality plans to get past permitting authorities.  Or he can have the designer do drawings of varying quality for marketing or presentation purposes.  

Nor,  does he have to be a master operator either.  Arm waving is fine, as long as he knows how to wave the arms and communicate the ideas.  The key is does he get-r-done in the dirt to be a GCA.  My 2 cents....

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Young

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2007, 04:16:10 PM »
RJ,
We are close...
I would consider Dan and Dave architects....
my point is....I don't care how many drawigns one does and how many specifications one writes....pictures are pretty.....
if the work is never implemented then I dont consider it golf architecture....and neither does the test of time.....
how many guys on here talk about the masterplans of the old dead guys?  they talk about their courses.....
Pretty pictures are usually BS....
I have never played a drawing yet....
If I see a website that has 40 projects listed and when one researches them he sees they are just basically one day consulting/drawingmasterplan type deals.....but no 18 hole projects in the ground......something aint right....this site has brought out a lot of that stuff.....
JMO
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2007, 04:27:35 PM »
Some of Mr. Wright's most beloved and celebrated work was his "master planning" projects. The great Arizona State Capital — never built, but loved and despised by many — is among those.

http://www.waymarking.com/wm/details.aspx?f=1&guid=61aea7d8-782e-4205-82cc-82db68286ff9


Forrest, you may have seen this one while working at Peacock Gap in San Rafael.  It actually was built according to Wright's design, the Marin County Civic Center.


RJ_Daley

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2007, 04:30:51 PM »
Yes Mike, we are pretty close on the definition of a GCA.

I might split one hair...  the guy that conceives and designs on paper or translates the design idea to a constructor for 'individual holes' in remodelling or restoration to be built, AND supervises the actual building of them, including all specifications and permitting, and does this as an on-going viable business (not merely one hole for a golf course operator acquaintence); but hasn't yet achieved the contract for a full 18 hole course, might be still considered an architect, or at least if he works for a GCA firm, an architect associate.  

I say this realizing that there just isn't enough work to go around for full 18 hole projects for everyone properly trained to be an architect, and that they still have the knowledge ''and proven in the dirt product" to show for it, albeit, individual holes.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Young

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2007, 04:42:58 PM »
RJ,
I see your point but just can't quite agree ..but there could exceptions.
I say if they have never done 18 holes then there is a certain aspect missing. Of course many of the old dead guys had no idea how their work turned out.....a day here and a day there.....yet they get credit for things they did not know existed....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JMorgan

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2007, 04:45:15 PM »
Couple of questions for Mike, Jeff, Forrest:

Do most of the young turks who are trying to pass themselves off as experienced GCAs have some sort of background in the applied aspects of golf architecture, ie. grading, irrigation, erosion control experience, etc., or are they designers who have never put a tool in the ground?

Do you think that the only path/best path to becoming a practicing GCA is the apprentice model?  

If a GCA requires no L.A. or engineer's license to build a course, do you think that such a requirement should be considered to build courses in the future?


Jeff_Brauer

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2007, 05:09:28 PM »
Mike,

I agree with RJ on the remodel thing, with Ron Forse being a great example of a good gca who specializes in renovations, and has only a few 18 hole new course credits.  He IS a golf course architect.  That said, I agree that new 18 hole courses are the fullest test of a designers ability.  Who can ignore routing as a function of gca?

JMorgan,

Most new gca firms are associate/apprentice gca's from larger/older firms hanging out their shingles.  (Not sure if that, or the phrase "putting their tool in the ground is more offensive... ::))

I do think the apprentice model is the best.  Even with an LA degree, or construction experience, seeing "how its done" up close is the best way to learn, and school will never teach that.  To a degree, I think Mike's last two threads are stating the case that too many people think this profession is easy, and enter it based on reading a few books, or love of golf, or whatever, with little or no technical foundation to translate those big ideas into actual construction.

I can agree to a point.  Take a course in my area where they hired a Tour Pro new to design. He in turn hired the son of a famous gca to produce drawings, but the experienced management company found them inadequate (basically, at that time, another "first timer."  So, he hired another young gca who had just left my firm to produce plans for him.

If you are a well rounded gca, you have to ask, "How many people does it take to concieve ideas, produce plans and bid or build the project and observe construction?"  Traditionally, the answer is "one" and those of us who can provide all those functions naturally question the specialists, like Tour Pros, that can't, and the Owners who pay all the extra fees for something other than getting a reasonable design built.

Of course, its a free country, and people sure wondered about Pete Dye many years ago, but he stumbled through okay.  We simply have to let everyone who wants to to try their hand, knowing full well most will fail in a short time.  Meanwhile, established firms "lose out" and owners may lose money, or get bad results.  If the ratio of successful gca firms to non is 1 out of 4, like other businesses, I guess its worth putting up with some bad work to see the greatness of a few emerge.

I do not believe any type of license should be required.  We can get philosophical or political about it, wondering just what pubic interest is served by bad golf design prevention (although many states licensce barbers, and I am not sure any public health, safety and welfare benefits accrue from that.)  

Or, we can just say that we would be deprived of Pete Dye, Jack Nicklaus and other great designers throughout time.  Just imagine what the island green at TPC might look like if designed by a licensed engineer!

ASGCA has fought licensing requirements forever based on this reasoning. Who (other than a bunch of landscape architects or engineers) wants our courses designed by landscape architects or engineers rather than those with a passion for the craft?  In fact, most license law proposals come from that group, trying to protect or expand their turf.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 05:19:15 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2007, 05:11:40 PM »
I think that the ASGCA model has some merit, but like all things that are regimented with certifications and regulations, there are examples that clearly and to the regulating-certifying association's embarrasment, fall through the cracks.  For varying reasons, it seems several REAL ARCHITECTS, by my standards and definitions, scorn, shun, ridicule or criticize the ASGCA.  I think the Society's intentions are generally in the right spot, but the system still rankles and leaves enough room for criticism to be flawed, IMHO.

After this post, I will obviously defer to the REAL ARCHITECTS, like Mike, Jeff, Forrest, Tom, et al to give their ideas and definintions.  I am merely a hobbiest who likes to yammer about their professions.  But, one must note that even a circle as small as those named will have slightly differing criteria, standards and views.

JMorgan, new people have to start somewhere.  The apprentice model in both construction and understudying other real architects is the ideal, no question in my mind about that.  Those puffing resumes are perhaps a symptom of the greater society where such resume puffing has become a common thing in all fields.  Not good...

Being a GCA should not require a license in a specific discipline like engineering or a degree in L.A. that has within its core cirriculum engineering aspects.  That would have left Pete Dye out of the mix, it seems to me.  And, plenty of others...

I think we have to admit that Crump, Wilson, and the various other one-trick ponies were/are indeed golf course architects by virtue of the scope of their one work.  Today's regualtory environment limits to a far greater extent the possibility of the one trick pony, GCA.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Young

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2007, 05:14:52 PM »
Jeff,
I think I also mentioned that renovation/restoration by guys with 18 hole projects was acceptable.....that would include both Ron F and Ron P....there are many it doesn't include....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2007, 05:24:33 PM »
RJ,

As has been stated here by both member and non members of ASGCA, ASGCA is neither a certifying or regulating body. It is a professional society looking to work for the common good of the profession and its members where it can.

It has had a small percentage of non joiners throughout its history, a trend which continues today.  No one is forced to join, or can be forced to join.  Its their choice, even if we would love to have every passionate, qualified and ethical architect who meets our minimum standards of having designed and inspected construction of five courses (of which three need to be recent 18 hole courses).
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

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Re:When is golf course architecture golf course architecture???
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2007, 06:24:43 PM »
Jeff, while I said I'd stand aside to comprehend what the real archies have to say, I want to give you proper acknowledgement that you are of course correct and I did not not well or fully explain my intention.  

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I think that the ASGCA model has some merit, but like all things that are regimented with certifications and regulations, there are examples that clearly and to the regulating-certifying association's embarrasment, fall through the cracks.

Of course, I knew the ASGCA does not certify or grant license, etc.  It only administers a set of standards for assoicate and full membership based as you have explained.  

What I was intending to get at, was that the membership standards of many organizations or regulating bodies, governmental, quasi-govermental, and certain trade unions or associations, have standards that don't always fit or serve to keep out some worthy and talented people, while incompetents slip through and qualify.  

Take teachers for example.  The rigid standards of certification by state DPIs sometimes allow incompetents to jump through the academic and class work recertification standards who do it on paper, and are just plain incompetent in the classroom, yet others from various professional environments that apply the subject matter are precluded from teaching or won't go through the often superfluous and time consuming educational prerequisites to get the teaching cert-license.  

From my profession, there are state standards to certify law enforcement that allows incompetents, yet others who would make great cops, are precluded due to unwillingness or circumstances that disencourage or dissuade certain otherwise excellent candidates from entering law enforcement.

None of these examples are hard and fast, plain and simple, or applicable in all circumstances.  There just always seems to be problems with any system that defines admission to a profession by too strict of standards.  We always seem to loose someone who would otherwise be a great addition to the identified profession, in the mix, it seems to me....

nothing is perfect, I guess.
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