[Kalen Braley]

After seeing the thread on Rees Jones yesterday I went out to his website to look around a bit.  I went to the section labeled awards and found this.  I'm pretty sure he didn't design any of these courses, but apparently has done some work on them and as such put the awards these courses have won in his own section.  This seems to be a little overboard: (I only picked out the ones that I was pretty sure he wasn't the original designer, but please correct me if I'm wrong)

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/awards/awards_award.php

Baltusrol Golf Club (Lower Course)  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses  

Baltusrol Golf Club (Upper Course)  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the U.S.
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses  

Bethpage State Park (Black Course)  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golfweek - America's Best Classical Courses
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Public Courses
Golf Magazine - Tenth, Top 45 Courses Since 1959
Golf Magazine - Seventh, Top 100 Courses You Can Play

Congressional Country Club (Blue Course)  
 Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses
Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
 
East Lake Golf Club  
 Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses
 
Hazeltine National Golf Club  
 Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the U.S.
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Modern Courses
Golf Magazine - Eighth, Top 45 Courses Since 1959  

Medinah Country Club (Course Number Three)  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
 
Oakland Hills Country Club (South Course)  
 Golfweek - Best Top 100 Classic Courses  

Pinehurst Country Club (Course Number 2)  
 Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses
Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Public Courses
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golf Magazine - Sixth, Top 100 Courses You Can Play
Golfweek - America's Best Resort Golf Courses
 
Sahalee Country Club (North/South)  
 Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Modern Courses
Golf Magazine - Forty Five, Top 45 Courses Since 1959
 
The Country Club  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses  

 
 

[Kirk Gill]

I recently played 2 Donald Ross Courses - Wellshire G.C. in Denver and Shawnee C.C. in Topeka - I can't find any evidence that Donald Ross ever set foot on either of these properties - my guess is that he "designed" them from topos and sent the plans to the crew on sight for construction.
I would be happy to hear from anyone who can tell me I am wrong about this.
DB

In a thread quite some time back I asked the same question regarding Wellshire, and I was informed that Ross did visit the site while he was in the area working at the Broadmoor, but more recent threads state unequivocally that he did not visit the site, but worked from topo maps. Looks like you're not wrong on Wellshire, Doug. I have not seen the plans, but they do exist, and the course has been changed a good bit. I wonder who is listing THOSE changes on their resume?

[JC Jones]

I've read several gca books and did what witnesses would refer to as some serious excavation work in the bunkers at Pac Dunes.

I cant wait to put that on my resume.  I'm ready to quit this legal thing and open up my own design shop specializing in Doak restorations.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
You say:
"What Mike talks about, where a fledgling consultant, with no experience other than participation on golf club atlas and reading a few books, is truly a new one on me.  I can't even concieve of that one and it smacks of desparation."

It is happening here everyday.....conceive of it.....now they will not do the work but the BS is being shoveled in the process....
Mike

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
It seems that mailing the brochure "Selecting Your Golf Course Architect: Questions and Answers" to every golf committee might be monies well spent, as some may not find it on the assoc. website.

Mike,
The BS gets shoveled around on a lot of other issues and people are called to task for it. If this strikes you as hurting your profession, or just driving you nuts, why don't you call these pretenders out? Just 'saying' it's a problem does no good, and not much else is going to make them stop.

[Doug Ralston]

I once watched the World Chess Championship online, with a lot of other kibitzers from ICC. I commented on the critical move of the decisive game that Kasparov should make a certain move. He did! He retained his Championship!

Aren't I the Co-Champion?

Doug

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
The BS gets shoveled around on a lot of other issues and people are called to task for it. If this strikes you as hurting your profession, or just driving you nuts, why don't you call these pretenders out? Just 'saying' it's a problem does no good, and not much else is going to make them stop.

More fun this way....they know who they are.....

[Mike_Cirba]

After seeing the thread on Rees Jones yesterday I went out to his website to look around a bit.  I went to the section labeled awards and found this.  I'm pretty sure he didn't design any of these courses, but apparently has done some work on them and as such put the awards these courses have won in his own section.  This seems to be a little overboard: (I only picked out the ones that I was pretty sure he wasn't the original designer, but please correct me if I'm wrong)

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/awards/awards_award.php

Baltusrol Golf Club (Lower Course)  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses  

Baltusrol Golf Club (Upper Course)  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the U.S.
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses  

Bethpage State Park (Black Course)  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golfweek - America's Best Classical Courses
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Public Courses
Golf Magazine - Tenth, Top 45 Courses Since 1959
Golf Magazine - Seventh, Top 100 Courses You Can Play

Congressional Country Club (Blue Course)  
 Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses
Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
 
East Lake Golf Club  
 Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses
 
Hazeltine National Golf Club  
 Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the U.S.
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Modern Courses
Golf Magazine - Eighth, Top 45 Courses Since 1959  

Medinah Country Club (Course Number Three)  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
 
Oakland Hills Country Club (South Course)  
 Golfweek - Best Top 100 Classic Courses  

Pinehurst Country Club (Course Number 2)  
 Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses
Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Public Courses
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golf Magazine - Sixth, Top 100 Courses You Can Play
Golfweek - America's Best Resort Golf Courses
 
Sahalee Country Club (North/South)  
 Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Modern Courses
Golf Magazine - Forty Five, Top 45 Courses Since 1959
 
The Country Club  
 Golf Magazine - Top 100 Courses in the World and U.S.
Golf Digest - America's 100 Greatest Golf Courses
Golfweek - America's 100 Best Classical Courses  

 
 

Kalen,

I know this isn't the point of Mike's thread, but it's a good example of misrepresentation nonetheless.

Of course, he can't hold a candle to Tom Fazio's design resume, which includes Pine Valley, Merion, ANGC, Winged Foot, Oakmont, et.al.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

...they know who they are.....

Thank you Sen. McCarthy    

[Tom_Doak]

I have a good story for you on the "credit" front which Ed Connor shared with me the other day.

Ed did a project with Desmond Muirhead in the Middle East a few years ago on which Colin Montgomerie was hired as a "design consultant".  He read Monty's list of design credits and was shocked to find Onwentsia Club in Chicago ... which has been there for 100 years, and where Ed was contractor when Bruce Hepner and I did some work about ten years ago.

He wondered how the heck Monty could credit himself with Onwentsia, so he did some digging.

Turned out Monty had hired a young man who used to work for Dick Nugent in Chicago, and years earlier, the young man had drawn a plan for rebuilding the 17th green at Onwentsia.  It didn't turn out so well, so we rebuilt it entirely when we did our work there ... but apparently that was enough to list Onwentsia as a design credit!

[Ray Richard]

The liberal use of the term "golf architect" is amazing. I asked an attorney with a construction based clientele the legal ramifications of using golf course architect as a professional title. He said that in my state (Mass.) this term could be used only by a registered landscape architect who has passed a test and is authorized to stamp a plan package with his/her license number. He said that misrepresentation of architect credentials is a serious issue, with criminal and liability ramifications. This can get really tricky when a non-registered architect signs an AIA document as an architect.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
I just had the same thing happen here in Ga.
A new group bought a course we did 12 years ago.....planted new ultra dwarf on the greens, put sand in the bunkers and moved one green....BUT they claimed an extensive redesign credited to the constrcution company....

[Jeff_Brauer]

...they know who they are.....

Thank you Sen. McCarthy    

Jim,

You seem to have a problem with the generally recognized "decorum" Mike is following.  However, having roused numerous rabbles in my day, I will give an example, to illustrate how such things play out in the design industry…..
 
A while back, someone posted a Cherry Hills hole rendering from Mark Fine.  As I understand it, that drawing was prepared as part of his sales presentation, and done so before Mark got (or didn’t get, I really don’t know the status) the project.

While it was posted for information purposes and discussion, which many appreciated, I have spoken to more than one "industry folk" who wonders if a casual observer might get the impression that this was actual consulting work that was implemented at a famous course, if in fact he did not secure that commission. Naturally, they are really wondering if that impression might get him (and cost them) similar projects in a competitive profession.  With more designers coming in the profession from writing and the pro tour ranks where marketing and ethics ideas can be completely different than the design professions, traditionally trained designers are likely to be upset more often.

This kind of thing is not a new issue.  The controversy about whether Stiles or Langford designed Omaha CC exists because both somehow list it on their resume.  Did one, in that slow age of communication put it on his "going out the door to the printers" resume just "knowing" he had the job at the time of printing?  That conflicting info has persisted 70 years!  How long will any misunderstandings last in the instant (and forever) info age?  

We all feel pressure to make our resumes appear more impressive, but funny things happen to small bits of information.  For example, within the last five years, I saw an article wrongly giving me credit for Kemper Lakes, based on quoting an old article that incorrectly quoted someone else.  With the use of the net to look up background info, perhaps this problem will do nothing but expand and one exaggeration/mistake/honest mistake/information misuse even with the best of intention can be unknowingly repeated forever, perhaps changing the course of golf course architecture history!  

Short version – I don’t know if we are talking about the same example, but I agree with Mike that all should be more careful in what and how we put info out there.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW,

Mike's mention of the construction company illustrates that its not just designers who might exagerate....

When selecting Contractors, I am often told that such and such "built" a famous course, when I know for a fact that someone else had the contract.  To some guys, having run a tractor on a project translates into having built the course, much like being a draftsman translates into having designed the course.  While I don't doubt that either increases that person's understanding of the craft somewhat, the buyer must beware of just how much.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
I've only made a couple of remarks on this thread and I can't see where you get the idea that I have any problem with what Mike is saying.

I said there is no 'test' needed to call yourself a GCA.
I asked if more participation in the ASGCA would help to make it harder for 'fake' architects to practice?
I asked how much resume padding is done by ASGCA members and how much by those not so affiliated?
I suggested better info from ASGCA to golf committees might be monies well spent toward helping with the issue.
I suggested that Mike call the pretenders out.
When someone says "They know who they are", doesn't that make you wonder if there really is a they?

p.s. it was only a small jab
   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Sadly, I know there is a they......it is only a question of which "they" each of us gca's are familar with.

BTW, I hope I answered your other questions in my posts.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
Yes, you did. Thanks

[Tim Copeland]

I tell ya what Mike...not coming out and saying what you mean speaks volumes about you.  

If you want to play that game I can play it also.  In the industry you hear many things about the people in the industry....some are not true....most are true.  I rely on a vast network of friends and associates to find out if I need to work with someone or to find out if I need to pass.  I had to pass recently because a trusted source gave me some really good advice that I needed.  I took it and passed on an opportunity that I really wanted to pursue.

Yourself and Jeff called me on the carpet recently.  I posted that I didnt like the fact that archies received credit for working on a course when they actually only made a few visits and not involved in the day to day construction of courses I had been associated with.  Your response was basically to "get over it...thats the way it is"

My response to you about this matter is basically the same.  Unless you dont want to hide behind your keyboard any longer and confront the party...I suggest you deal with it.

Deep down inside it makes me chuckle to read of you having problems with someone and not dealing with it man to man....like I said....speaks volumes.

There is one other alternative.......you could call the WAAAAAAAMMMMMBBBUUULLLLAAAAAANNNCCCCEEEEEE

Good luck in your cloaked quest

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

I don't recall the exact incident of calling you on the carpet, and if you were talking about tour pros and names vs. firms that do the work, or principals vs. associates.  The concept of how detailed we should be in splitting credit is an interesting one, at least to those of us in the biz.

As an on site person, how would you know for instance, who came up with the design concept, even if you know who the field person implementing it is?  Or, after a "public" discussion in front of shapers, etc. how do you know the principal didn't go back and tell the associate to make a different change, because he was unhappy, but didn't want to embarrass that associate in front of others to keep his street cred.....?

Bringing all that back to this discussion, a new gca could easily convince someone that he "did all the design" if he was the one the owner saw in the field, but it might not be the case at all.

[wsmorrison]

This sort of attribution morass has been going on for decades.  Some inadvertent and some of it deliberate.  Dick Wilson took design credit for Shinnecock Hills and it has been suggested that Red Lawrence tried to take credit for Indian Creek.  In the case of Indian Creek, Red Lawrence did oversee the construction of the course so perhaps someone confused building the course with designing the course and Lawrence did little to accurately state the record.   In the case of Shinnecock Hills, Wilson was second in charge of construction under the authority for William Gordon, the construction foreman who worked for Toomey and Flynn in building the course to William Flynn's plans.

[Mike_Young]

Tim,
Don't recall calling you on the carpet.
I think Tom Doak described his business model one day in the way I would describe mine.  He basically said he had assembled a team and all contributed.  Where some of us may choose to have minimal drawings and be on site much more than some that may only make a few visits....it is just different ways of designing a course.  Same can be said for any effort whether it be a coach with 5 superbowls and no playing experience....or whatever....

The issues I see happening today that concern me are not issues such as whether Dick Wilson took credit for Flynn work or vice versa or even if one contractor says he redid ANGC and another says he did(BTW about 5 firms will say they have done the latest changes at ANGC but they have to suggest it because they are prohibited from saying much) ....those things don't concern me because both sides have actually done work somewhere...  THE ISSUES I am speaking of are where some guy reads a book and has a passion for golf architecture....finds an outlet such as this site and next thing you know he is promoting himself as a golf architect...I have met plenty who know this stuff better than myself but most are fairly humble about it.....for someone to come on with websites and hype when they have zero golf courses in the ground shows a complete disrespect for the profession as a whole.  

For myself, I will not name names on a website, I don't hide behind keyboards....and while you think most of the hearsay in the business is true....I try to ignore most of what I hear.

These websites are informative but mostly entertainment and I see a danger when guys with little respect for golf architecture begin to label themselves or promote themselves where people or clubs will perceive them as having done projects they did not do.  When the day comes that they get in my way I will handle it then...for now...I just do as I told you.."I get over it"....
Mike

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Why do I imagine Rodney Dangerfield's voice when I read this:

.....for someone to come on with websites and hype when they have zero golf courses in the ground shows a complete disrespect for the profession ......

I agree, though.  The true definition of a professional is someone who makes it look easy.  Sometimes, I think this website and the information age in general makes far too many people think it is easy to be a gca.

I don't get no respect, I'm tellin' ya!

[Don_Mahaffey]

 The credit issue is interesting to me. More than once I've seen a course credited to one or more architects and always wondered how they did that. It's a Fazio course...but an associate gets credit towards society membership because he worked on the course. Or a guy does some free consulting for a club...maybe the work never gets done...yet he's now the consultant.

I know Superintendents, who claim to have "built" a course, but when there is a full time on-site design associate, a general contractor, numerous sub-contractors, a project manager and construction superintendent, did the first maintenance superintendent really "build" the golf course? In my case, I’m directing the construction of Mike Nuzzo’s first solo design. Mike and I have worked closely together on just about every detail starting months before any work was ever done. Should I get design credit because I made routing suggestions or directed feature shaping?  I don’t think so, and I wouldn’t dream of claiming any design credit. But I do know that because of the type of construction process we are using I am truly building the golf course, with a lot of help and assistance from Mike and others. But day to day it’s me who directs what happens on-site. That’s not the same as someone who “builds” a course with 110 man construction crew directed by others.

But on the resume it’ll look the same.

I think we have to give the folks who hire people a little more credit because I’m not seeing the pretenders scooping up a lot of the jobs out there. Being able to quote a few dead guys and produce some old, or new, drawings doesn’t mean anything if you don’t know how to get it built. And I think most clients understand this and are not ready to turn over their golf course to someone who has never had any mud on his boots.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
You were right with Rodney.....I don't get no respect.....

Don,
Well said.
And you are correct.....most owners know better....

But think about this....the pen is powerful and so much BS has been written (along with much excellent material) that in 25 years we are going to have some things described as fact that were not even close......

Any field where the barrier to entry is non exisitent will have the same problem....truth be known..anybody can design or build a golf course....it is just that the learning curve is much greater than this site thinks.....so when I read some of the hype on here I just get grumpy...cant get no respect.....or as Al says "hey did somebody step on a duck?"

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
There is a much longer history of *amateurs building golf courses than there is for professionals, and the amateurs did build some special ones.



edit: I'm not one of them
 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()