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Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« on: October 05, 2005, 04:43:36 PM »
Decided to visit Morfontaine on Monday to escape a corporate golf day on our course. Spent more time than expected looking around the new 12th green by Kyle Phillips. A surprisingly big green features some very bold contouring that is tied-in very well to the surrounding woodland. Everyone is paying attention to the green but I found the new tees add a very interesting angle and perspective. A tempting power-fade around some ideally placed pine trees at the turning point leaves the ideal line of attack for the big boys. The safer and wider line is a fairly straight forward 3 shot strategy.

Time flew by so we decided to play the 9 hole for the first time, and what an inspired choice it was.

Absolutely stunning !

This course qualifies for a number of past threads : Best par 3's (all 3 of them), Best green complexes (Wild contouring, apart from 6 & 7), Most picturesque site (beats Swinley and that takes some doing), best short par 5's and the list goes on and on and .... Now the photos.

New 12th green
 

and again...



Opener on the 9 hole, dogleg right



2nd



3rd



3rd green. Inspiration for the new 12th ?



3rd green reverse angle



4th



4th green, this one might break just a little !



5th tee



5th approach



5th green, very inviting, n'est-ce-pas ?



8th tee



8th approach



8th green



and again..



Uphill 9th



And finally 3 wise........ who watch while others try to play.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2005, 06:28:24 PM »
Stuart:

Just curious ... why did they need a new green at 12?

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2005, 07:31:02 PM »
Stuart,

The third green on the 9-hole course is very reminiscent of the 16th green at my home course, designed by Stanley Thompson. Although at Morfontaine, it appears that at a diagonal to the line of play, as opposed to parallel. Regardless, it is greens featuring such heavy and interesting contours that make golf so enjoyable. Such greens allow for many more options when chipping / pitching or lag putting, and really let the imagination of the golfer shine through.

TK

Keith Durrant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2005, 01:12:07 AM »
Stuart, c'est magnifique!

The par 3 4th hole looks inspirational. The way the false front is partly disguised by the downhill angle of the hole and the target looks bigger than it really is - would a ball come right back into the front bunker if landing short but on the green?

The 5th hole, does this play as a par 4 or 5? It appears one is being asked to flirt with the right hand bunkers on approach to bank in to get close to the hole?

Does it play firm and fast enough to take advantage of the contours?

On the new 12th green, has the strategy of the hole been changed by the new green, or has the existing green simply been replicated, 50 yards further back?

NAF

Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2005, 07:09:39 AM »
Stuart- Amigo-- Now you have made my life difficult especially after Paul and I didnt play that 9 holes in order to hook up with you at St. Germain.. We should have just played it and I should have flown out of Paris the next AM instead of the train.

That may be the best 9 holer in the world from your pictures.  Certainly looks like it has some of the best Simpson and all world greens in existence.  Did you find the greens there more severe than on the regulation 18?  Paul and I just checked out the 9th hole and both agreed it was very much in spirit with Pine Valley.

On the 12th hole we found that Phillips is putting the green in an inspired setting albeit we did like the current 12th's low profile nature. That said, I think the new 12th will be fine although I wonder why the club found the need for the changes, with the new back tee I'm guessing they've added maybe 40 yards to the hole?  Was it necessary.  I'm glad you think that a green on the old 9 is the inspiration for the green on the 12th.  Paul and I were unable to see the contours back in May of the new green.

Man,  you these pics make me want to go back to Paris..  Perhaps next year as the wife wants to go..

T_MacWood

Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2005, 08:22:30 AM »
Those are some wild greens, I can only imagine what they look like in person.

The nine-holer was originally called Valliere and was the private course for the Duc de Gramont. It was built by Simpson in 1912. Valliere was the name of his estate...the Duc was a keen sportsman, evidently he hunted stags and wild boar at this place. I reckon they are long gone.

The Duc and his friends then commissioned Simpson to design a new 18 (Morfontaine) in the 20's, and the nine holer was donated to the new club.

T_MacWood

Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2005, 08:43:01 AM »
I wonder if the routing at Morfontaine was changed at some point. Old #12 was a par-3 with a two-tiered green, with the outer perimeter of the green sloping away in all directions (heather surrounded the green), with a single bunker eating into the front. The green looked to be very interesting and was the subject of an article written by Charles Ambrose.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2005, 02:42:30 PM »
Tom D,

I was told that the club had been toying with the idea for a number of years. The tees were taken back as some players hit long irons off the tee to avoid a barrier of heather that crosses the fairway. As for the green, the original is uncharacteristically flat, short and defenseless and I suppose the space available was just too tempting.

Maybe their project was delayed so long due to the clubs respect for Simpson's work, the club is not known for chopping and changing, regardless of who is in charge. I can only assume that Kyle Phillips managed the situation well enough to reassure the club members.

Did they really need to do it, probably not !
However club members may tell you that they still have their original tees and green, hence still intact. When you think of it, earthmoving or bunker additions between the original tee & green would have been much more controversial, don't you agree ?

I was certainly sceptic before seeing the changes, but to be honest it doesn't shock me. You can always be picky about bunker entrances, ridges or swales, but generally speaking, I like it.

Keith,

The front of the 4th green is concave, so unless you get an enormous amount of backspin, I think you're safe.

The 5th is reachable with two decent hits, although not without risks. Getting the 2nd shot over the fairway bunker is fairly straight forward but a draw maybe necessary (perfect for you) to avoid heather left or the bunkers right. The slopes favour a typical flirt with the right side bunker.The downhill run-in is some 30-40m so the line is more important than exact length.

The course could be a touch firmer, although the severe slopes still take you where you want to go.

The strategy on 12 has definitely changed. The new tees create a prononced dogleg and asks the player how close he wants to get to the corner, a few extra meters is always welcome. This line is the only realistic chance of getting close in two as a diagonal ridge / false front protects the left side of the green.
IMO 550m is a little too long to tempt enough players. A 4-6m wide green entrance, between ridge and bunker (right), is the opening available for a 2nd of 260m+. Anything shortish or left will run away into a large hollow leaving a tricky approach. A subtle swale eats into the rear of the green and moves slowly but surely left towards the grassy hollow. The high right side is home to the only bunker.

Noel and Tom M,

I will reply a little later.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2005, 05:01:28 PM »
Noel,

Looks like you need at least 3 or 4 days to take in Morfontaine again, Fontainebleau, Chantilly and maybe St-Cloud.

The 9-hole greens definitely have more severe slopes but are easier to play, the slopes help you get to the middle but putting on them is another matter. I find the greens on the 18 reject the ball from certain angles and contours often plunge towards adjacent bunkers. Putting off the green on the 18 could easier occur, rather vexing !

I thought the diagonal ridge on the 3rd green really made the raised rear pin position. This arrangement explains the new 12th green, the same elevation change, same angle but with 3-400m² of green on the raised part. Obviously the lower part of the 3rd green represents the grassy hollow on 12. Anyway, just my thoughts on the concept.

The 12th has been lengthened by 93m, 50 of which come from the new back tee.

Tom M,

You're correct!
The course is still called Valliere.

The stags are still there and do a good job of scarifying greens in the night. Wild boar are fenced out, but you can be sure they are dozens roaming around the perimeter fence ready to rip up the irrigated fairways.

I'm not aware of routing changes but I do know the 6th and 7th (Valliere) were rebuilt after the war, very understated compared to the rest.


Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2005, 05:14:44 PM »
I think we are only just beginning to appreciate what gems were laid out in the classical era in continental Europe.  There are some great (not simply good) courses awaiting re-evaluation.  Thank you for posting this and keeping us aware of what we need to know.

Keith Durrant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2005, 05:26:02 PM »
Stuart,

Re. the 3rd to the new 12th green comparison:

In your first pic, one can see a bunker some way short of the green, up in the heather on the top right, presumably to intimidate
the "ground game run-up" shot from the right hand side which would then catch the slope down to the flag?

With the new 12th green, the bunker placement guards against any chance of a run up on the right side and is perhaps more
symptomatic of today's aerial game?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2005, 05:29:28 PM by Keith Durrant »

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2005, 05:48:08 PM »
Keith,

This pic displays the contrast you're talking about, much more agressive use of greenside bunkering on 12.
You have a good point as that rear/right pin position can only be reached in the air and the green slopes left.


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2007, 09:07:43 PM »
Bringing back this old thread started by a St Germain greenkeeper extraordinaire...Stuart Hallett.

I still can't believe how cool that third 9 at Morfontaine looks (didn't play it when I was there :P  ).  Wild greens and wooly bunkers that look perfect.  Has there been any architect more artistic than this?

Also makes me wonder what was lost of Simpson's work in the UK.  He seemed to be too radical for many clubs.

(Best 9 holer in the world?)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 09:36:44 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2007, 09:45:07 PM »
Wow, stunning, wicked and beautiful.   Didn't realize Simpson could be like that.  Seems like a perfect before-breakfast-after-dinner nine that would never lose its guts.  Give me 18 more of the same, please.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2007, 03:09:01 AM »
Stuart.

Two questions.

Morfontaine or Fontainbleau.
Is one better than the other?

Is there any doubt that they are the best two courses on the continent?

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2007, 02:10:13 PM »
Paul,

Thanks for bringing back the thread, the 9 hole certainly deserves a revival. Luckily, Jonny Davison called me today to tell me. I've been busy running around between St-Cloud, Granville, St-Germain, Biarritz and Chiberta, some interesting projects at the moment.

Mike,

To answer your second question first, they certainly must be amongst the best, although I haven't played or seen enough courses to make such a statement. You are surely better placed, and I assume that is what you think?

Morfontaine or Fontainebleau !
Same architect, similar sites (fantastic heathland with maybe too many invasive pines & sessle oaks), comparable maintenance, it's really tough and maybe unfair to choose !

However, I do have a slight preference for Morfontaine, but I must say that maybe the exclusivity and atmosphere at the club may have some influence. And of course the 9 hole that you could play until your dying days. The 18 hole has recently undergone major scale tree clearing, not sure if any course changes are planned. I should get back there soon, when invited of course.

Let's say that Simpson spoilt the Parisians with these two gems, not forgetting Chantilly to top it off. IMO Paris is an underestimated golfing destination. Don't forget the two Colt courses, plus a few Hawtree courses & Golf National, etc.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2007, 02:47:58 PM »
Looks terrific, thanks Stuart.  

How does Morfontaine (or any of the other Paris courses) stack up against the heathland classics near London?

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2007, 04:45:36 PM »
Tim,

I'd say that both Morfontaine & Fontainebleau would be right up there with the likes of Swinley, Walton Heath and others, I think they're much better than Wentworth. The feel of Morfontaine reminds me so much of Swinley, apart obviously from the distinctive differences between Colt and Simpson.

Unfortunately the soil characteristics of these courses are limited to a few pockets around Paris, and Simpson seems to have snapped up the prime sites in towns affluent enough for such developments.
One Hawtree course has the same underlying soil, but has masses of concrete fill from Paris building sites back in the 60's, strange!! I think the fill helped the financing.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2007, 05:02:30 PM »
Paul,

Thanks for bringing back the thread, the 9 hole certainly deserves a revival. Luckily, Jonny Davison called me today to tell me. I've been busy running around between St-Cloud, Granville, St-Germain, Biarritz and Chiberta, some interesting projects at the moment.


Stuart

Are you having any luck in bringing St Cloud back to its former glory...that old pic you sent to me:



How about Granville too?
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2007, 05:10:31 PM »
Encore for Granville pics.

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2007, 05:47:24 PM »
Paul,

Working on that very hole at the moment. As you know, this par 3 has suffered a lot of changes since the photo was taken, but we are in the process of rekindling the spirit of the hole, tees, bunkers and surrounds. The putting surface is more or less intact. Took down some big trees behind the green for breathing space and found a new, or very old perspective of the Eiffel tower as a backdrop to the green when stood on the tee. Starting to look good but the working space is a little tight.

Granville has been more turf management up until now. A couple of old tees have been put back into use, fairways redesigned, reseeded, etc.We are now looking at architectural issues on a bigger scale.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morfontaine - 9 hole & new 12th green
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2007, 07:27:12 PM »
I played Granville a couple of days ago. It definitely needs architectural input, there are some good holes, but some are just not that interesting. The site is not exactly scenic either, at least for linksland.

It has some quirk, which is good for a relatively short links, but anything off the fairway is unplayable. That is a shame, it should be more open and strategic.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

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