[Wayne_Kozun]

Why wouldn't you on this ONE day of the year want to set up your course in a somewhat difficult way?  

One day  - the Open flight at my course is 72 holes over 4 days, the handicap flights are 54 holes over 3 days.

I agree that the Open flight should play the back tees.

[C. Squier]

So, how do y'all feel about extra levels of grooming, or faster greens, etc. for your club championships? How consistent are we in our expectations?

Joe

If you see the same conditions at other times of the year, then by all means, go ahead.  I don't mind seeing fast greens, tough pins or long rough all converging at the same time, as long as each of those variables have been seen at some point during the year (not necessarily all at the same time though).

As for double rolling and triple cutting the greens?  That's just the means to make a 6 hour round.  No thanks.  Especially when there is a chance that they'll damage the greens at the end of the week.  

CPS

[Cory Lewis]

At our club we alternate years between match and medal play, in match play years everybody qualifies from the same tees, usually the blue or 6600 yard tees.  Then people are put into flights based on qualifying scores.  Championship flight plays the black or 7100 yards tees, flight 1 plays the blues, and every other flight plays the gold/6250 yard tees.  

In medal play, like this year, everybody played the blue tees for the first two rounds, then were put in flights with championship playing black, 1st flight playing blue and everybody else playing gold for the final two rounds of the medal play club championship.  This has worked well as it keeps the higher handicappers participating because it's a level playing field and they get to play their tees the last couple rounds.  

As for green speeds, the final round of the club championship we had them running about 12 on the stimp, which might have been unfair since they are never that fast normally but everybody was satisified with the results.  

[grandwazo]

Most of the discussion here, if not all, is focused on length.  My home course plays at most 6400 yards and that is what anyone playing in the championship flight plays the course at throughout the year.

The golf committee in conjunction with the green committee grows the rough longer going in to and during the two weeks of the tournament, and our head golf professional sets the pins with varying degrees of difficulty leading up to the final round where all bets are off...the rough is the longest and the pin placements the most difficult.  Unfortunately with the limited length that is the only defense the course can muster.

All classes of the tournament play under these conditions except the A, B, C and C1 (yes, there is a C1) along with the seniors who play the course as short as 5700 yards.

As a point of interest, in the 36 hole medal play qualifier in the championship flight, played over two days, only one player had two rounds in the 70's, and the highest qualifier (out of 7) came in at 168.  I think that pretty much sums up the quality of play at my home course.  One of the players at 168 is a member of an Ivy league golf team and claims a 0.6 handicap.  He lost on the 18th today to a 50+ 7 handicap fat belly.  

It's a great game!

[Joe Hancock]

 Unfortunately with the limited length that is the only defense the course can muster.

Not to be a smart-aleck, but what is the course defending?

Joe

[grandwazo]

59?

[Joe Hancock]

59?

Fair enough...was just curious.

Joe

[JR Potts]

What is the proper way to set up a course for a Club Championship?  Do you set it up at the tips, the member tees or shorter than that?

What time of year is the CC played ?
 The qualifying for match play was this weekend.
What area of the country ?
 Chicago.[/color]
What's the weather like at the time of the CC ?
 95 degrees and sunny.[/color]
What's par ?
 Par is 71 on the #1 Course that was totally emasculated.  It usually plays around 6700...it played around 6500 yesterday with at least 150 yards chopped off on the par 3s..making them all around 155.  Usually they play at 155, 210, 175 and 185.  Today, we played Course #3, which played around 7000.  It usually plays around 7300 when teeing it up on any given day.  I understand the set-up today however.[/color]

Ryan, what's your preference ?[/color]
 My preference is to play it from the distance that we ordinarily play it from.  I would prefer to just play the member tees.  I don't think that is too much to ask.[/color]

At my Club, our Golf Committee is a bunch of 50-60 year olds that cannot compete with the length of the younger generation.  As a result, they set up the 7600 hundred yard course course around 6700 hundred yard to give them a chance.  

I call it bull shit...I'm interested to hear what others think.


At what yardage would you set the course at ?

What's the yardage at Southern Hills this week ?[/color]

 And Adam, since you seem to care so much, I bomb and gauged my way to a 76 for low round of the day.  Don't let the fact that I only hit 6 drivers today get in the way of your perfectly good insult.[/color]

 Patrick - truth be told, I would PREFER to play all the courses at the tips...but I understand that is neither realistic or entirely fair.[/color]

[RJ_Daley]

I can understand the desire to compete on the hardest test that one's club offers for the "championship flight".  
But, maybe the true bombers should consider slakking their thirst for stronger and longer competition by looking into a league or mini tour or your state am events.  

Maybe leave the fun of the club championship and all their respective flights and appropriate-to handicap distances to be determinied by the majority of the members that pay the freight to keep your club going.

I'd just like to say how lucky I feel in my own home course circumstance.  We play a 2 day club championship among some 220 people, with 5 flights on the 6400 distance and championship flight at the tip which is only 6750.  We also play a 2 day separate seniors club championship that is combined with what we call the "young guns".  We play that at only 6400.  

We held our county am this weekend, 3 days.  There were 6 flights on 6400 tees and championship flight at 6750.  Guess what?  No one was near breaking par 216 in the champ flight.   I think the winner was at 220.  There were some long players in the toonamint and no one ate up the course, as usual.  We held the State Am, and only the winner over the 4 days was -1 and the rest of the field (obviously played at the tips of 6750) was over par.  That winner also won the US senior Am that year.  And there were some bona fide bombers in that bunch, also!  The pins were all fair, some not used very often in regular play - but fair.  

So what is the point, if the course can challenge the vast majority and provide stimulating and enjoyable golf?  Why the need for distance in something that should be 'enjoyable' as a club championship?  

I think those obsessed with distance should seek to play with the big boys by entering other best available tournaments on long courses if you need the bomber challenge.  Or better yet, get into the right circles and start betting very heavy on yourself, if you are a thrill seeker...  

[RJ_Daley]

One other thing, I think our super, (who is god on all matters involving the course becasue he is a county department head and total boss of everything, including the pro and club house vendor) year in and year out shines the course up even better than normal for the various events.  He gives the pro the best conditions to set the best mix of pins and tees during the tournament days.  We don't thank them enough.  

Ironically, I have never seen the super play a round of golf, and don't think he even likes it...  

[C. Squier]

We play a 2 day club championship among some 220 people, with 5 flights on the 6400 distance and championship flight at the tip which is only 6750.  

There were 6 flights on 6400 tees and championship flight at 6750.  

We held the State Am, and only the winner over the 4 days was -1 and the rest of the field (obviously played at the tips of 6750) was over par.  

You held 3 tournaments and all 3 were played from the tips.  That would make me believe that if you had a set of tees at 7000 yards, they would've been there for those same 3 tournaments.  The point of the thread was to talk about a club championship being played from the third set of tees from the back.  Your course obviously has elements that make it very difficult from 6750 yards, but would it be t he same from 6000?  In effect, that's the same thing as taking Ryan's 7300 yards all the way down to 6700.  

[Joe Hancock]

Medinah #3 is long and rewards long, accurate driving.  It should be played long and reward long, accurate driving.    

A good summation of my stance on the issue. I really prefer a tournament to take place just as the course is found rather than taking all kinds of measures to make sure it is "tournament ready". Too many things go wrong when things are changed.

Show up, tee up and shut up....

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

Joe, but Medinah has 3 courses.  I don't know the answer for sure, but would guess that they have flights or even seperate club championships for each course, the women's, the middle regular members, and the championship #3 course.  

Isn't this just the very problem with designing these modern courses with tees beyond 7000-7100 that only the top 1% realistically can play on at those distances?  Why should a club, with a vast array of members, cater to the 1% when it comes to club championships of a membership that probably has an average club wide handicap of >10?  

Some courses like Medinah revel in their brute length and demanding narrow accuracy.  That is fine, and that is the kind of top player members they should draw.  But, if one is marketing a golf club under normal player population circumstances, why build or maintain a course at 7000+ and have competitions at those lengths where 99% of players don't belong, unless that is your target market of top 1% players?

Clint, we only set the tees at the tips for championship flights, and don't build further back tees, because they aren't needed.  We could, but why?  It is tough enough and ID's good players now as it is as a proven fact.   If we had 7100+ tees, what would that get us; a much smaller flight that could play back there and yet still not beat par that they aren't doing at 6750?  

[John Kirk]

Ryan is correct in this case.  Play a long version of the course, certainly not 7600 yards, but perhaps 7000-7200 yards.  Speed up the greens to see who has the best touch and nerves.

A young stud should be allowed to use his power advantage to help him win the club championship.

Unfortunately, since that is clearly Ryan's point, and he is clearly lobbying for changes that benefit Ryan, it appears self-serving.  Nevertheless, I'm with you, young buck.

[Joe Hancock]

RJ,

I was speaking more in terms of the simplicity of Shiv's statement. And, i agree with the rest of your analysis in that a tough, long course should attract a certain type of player, not necessarily appealing to all levels of ability.

Ryan's course is obviously where he wants to play. There are obvious issues with how the committee chose to set up the course. His post was basically looking for a "yea, that sucks" kind of response to help him feel like his position is solid. However, his post also left opportunity to discuss setups in a more general sense, and I think it is, for the most part, a healthy discussion.

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

In re-reading Ryan's comments, it seems he very well may be playing Medinah.  If so, I'm asking if I got this right, that they play a club championship flight on both #1 and the #3 courses over the days of the tournament, with the 1 course as described, they are playing for championship flight 2 days at much less than the tips and only the last day on the #3 course they play around 7000 instead of 7300?   Then, I agree that seems silly to dumb down the first course for the top flighters.  It seems to me that all the top quality players in the top flight in that club ought to be at the tips of the first course rather than so far up.  I would like to know how many players are in Ryan's flight and what the index spread is for that flight?

I still think the rest of the members, not in champ flight, should not have to play those distances.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ryan Potts,

Thanks for the info.

I forgot to ask, match or medal ?

If it's four (4) rounds of medal play the yardage could be varied.

I think 7,600 is excessive for amateurs.

Shivas fails to realize that Medinah # 3 was configured the way it was from the back tees for one reason and only one reason, to test the best players in the world, not country club amateurs.  And, I certainly wouldn't use Oakmont as an example.  They have a unique golfing culture, and Oakmont is a far cry from 7,600 yards.

I would imagine, dependent upon weather/playing conditions that 6,800 to 7,200 would be more than adequate for four rounds.

If it's match play, I"d probably set the course to 7,000 to 7,200.

At par 71, that's more than ample yardage to produce a worthy champion.

I'd like to know the names and handicaps of the club's amateurs who play the par 71 golf course at 7,600 every round they play.

[Adam Clayman]

It's also a ridiculous position that this course isn't set-up at 6700 yards on a daily basis.

[Joe Hancock]

It's also a ridiculous position that this course isn't set-up at 6700 yards on a daily basis.

Adam,

There probably is a set of tees around 6700....at least I would think there would be....

Joe

[W.H. Cosgrove]

We happen to play our club Championship, Medal from the tips.  You might understand that the tips are 6680, its all poa and tends not to allow a lot of run in the fairways.  I think we will have 20 in the championship flight.  Of those 4-5 have a chance to win.  overall participation in all flights, all divisions will be over 100 players and a large party will occur on Sunday the 26th with everyone celebrating another great golf season.

Getting back to the point.  Who are you trying to attract for the event?  Play it at 7600 yards get a two person field, a lot of head scratching from the membership and a meaningless title.  

Move the tees to 7000 +- and get a larger field, the same best golfer wins and a good time was had by all.  

This is business, and a club, if you don't get proper participation it becomes a meaningless drill.  

One caveat....you are one of the clubs in America with 20 touring pros as members.....go ahead move the tees back and sell tickets.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Ryan's story and other club championship stories are the reasons that actual touraments are run by people that are paid to do so. As usual, Shivas is correct, the members knew what the course was when they joined.

[JR Potts]

It's also a ridiculous position that this course isn't set-up at 6700 yards on a daily basis.

Adam, it is ridiculous that you comment on matters that you do not know of.  FYI - The Silver tees are the member tees.  The White tees are aptly titled the Senior tees.

COURSE #3 [Par 72]
Tees Yardage Slope Rating
Gold 7508 151 78.1
Silver 7096 147 76.0
White 6667 140 74.0

COURSE #1  [Par 71]
Tees Yardage Slope Rating
Gold 6713 135 72.9
Silver 6591 133 72.3
White (Ladies) 6224 130 70.6

Pat: To answer your other questions.  The Club Championship aternates between match play and metal play.  This year is a match play year.  As such, there is a two round qualifying for the top 8 spots. [There are 25 players with sub 3 handicaps and about 12 can realistically win a metal play event.  18 could win a match play event].  This weekend was the qualifying.  One round is played on Course #1 and one round is played on Course #3.  The match play event over labor day is played all on Course #3.

And Joe, I was never looking for agreement or someone else to say, "that sucks."  I merely posted this to gauge the postion of others and to either validate or invalidate my concern.  At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter as I qualified and now get to play match play on #3...which suits my game regardless of the distance of the set-up.  However, if you reread my post, my concern is with intentionally setting up a course, shorter than what is traditionally played, in order to "level the playing field" for Club Championships or other Championship events.  

Others (read, Adam) want to read more into it, like a preference for bomb and gauge, but that couldn't be further from the truth.  I was curious to hear the thoughts of the older gentlemen on this board who still have a lot of game and have competed at a higher level of play.

To the lot of you, thanks for your comments.



 

[Glenn Spencer]

Ryan Potts,

Thanks for the info.

I forgot to ask, match or medal ?

If it's four (4) rounds of medal play the yardage could be varied.

I think 7,600 is excessive for amateurs.

Shivas fails to realize that Medinah # 3 was configured the way it was from the back tees for one reason and only one reason, to test the best players in the world, not country club amateurs.  And, I certainly wouldn't use Oakmont as an example.  They have a unique golfing culture, and Oakmont is a far cry from 7,600 yards.

I would imagine, dependent upon weather/playing conditions that 6,800 to 7,200 would be more than adequate for four rounds.

If it's match play, I"d probably set the course to 7,000 to 7,200.

At par 71, that's more than ample yardage to produce a worthy champion.

I'd like to know the names and handicaps of the club's amateurs who play the par 71 golf course at 7,600 every round they play.

Pat,

7,200 yards. What did that course play from the back in 1995? About that or more right? Why set up a course for today's equipment that is easier than the challenge of 12 years ago. Which course do you think is harder? Medinah at 6,700 in 1995 or Medinah at 7,000-7,200 today?? I don't put ANY stock into club championships, but they should at least test a player that is playing it EVERY day.

[Adam Clayman]

Ryan, You're a joke, right?

You come on here BITCHING about your clubs tourney committee decision. Then you slam me for pointing out how ridiculous your assertions are.
Get a freeking life pal. This is a public forum if you didn't want disent call someone who gives a damn.

BTW, Congrats that it didn't matter since you made it to match play. I wonder who you would've sued over it if you didn't.

[JR Potts]

Adam:

Your "pointing out of my ridiculous asserations" are nowhere to be found.  Your posts constantly lack logic and are continuosly littered with the bitterness of an inept golfer.

And yes, I would have sued.....dumbass.

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