Pocono Manor - Donald Ross documentation??

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi All,

I'm presently researching the early design history of Pocono Manor GC in eastern Pennsylvania.

For as long as I can remember they have purported that the East course (first nine opened circa 1912) was designed by Donald Ross.

To date, I have not seen any documented evidence to support this.   Instead, in the William Flynn documentation that Wayne has been working with includes a routing plan and individual hole drawings by Flynn for the second nine, which was completed around 1920.   This routing is exactly the same as today's holes 7 through 16, as are the individual hole sketches.

Furthermore, I do not know of a single Donald Ross design in eastern PA prior to about 1918.   It used to be thought that Lulu was built by Ross prior, but the original nine there was built locally (by Meehan) and Ross was brought in towards the end of the decade.

My question, to anyone out there who might be able to help, is this;   does anyone have anything that might help clear up the puzzle of Donald Ross's involvement at Pocono Manor, or even know what the contention was originally based on?

Thanks for any help!

Mike

p.s.  Please feel free to IM me with any info if you wish to share privately.

[Dan Herrmann]

The USGA has something that may help (I don't think this particular item has been digiized):

Record 1 of 1
Title Golf At Pocono Manor
Publisher Privately printed
Publication Date 1915
Location Pocono Manor, PA
Subject Pocono Manor Golf Club Notes
Fold out map, and course photos
Type Brochure
Classification No. 4A2/PA.PocM/b


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[Mike_Cirba]

Dan,

Thank you very much.   I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I'm looking for if it's more than an advertising brochure.  

btw, I'm pretty sure that a man named Samuel Allen did the initial nine-hole design, but I want to find definitive documentation.

[mike_malone]

 A friend of mine spoke of a great deal there. Something like $200 for 36 on Sun. and 18 on Mon. with a stay there. Could this be true? I haven't been there in years, but always enjoyed it, particularly their funky putting green.

[JMorgan]

Mike, I just IM'ed you about this. JM

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, I just IM'ed you about this. JM

JM,

Thanks!   I just sent something I think might hold the answer.

Mike,

It was started by the Friends, as was Buck Hill Falls.

[JBergan]

Dan,

Thank you very much.   I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I'm looking for if it's more than an advertising brochure.  

btw, I'm pretty sure that a man named Samuel Allen did the initial nine-hole design, but I want to find definitive documentation.

The same Samuel Allen who invented the Flexible Flyer?

[Mike_Cirba]

The same Samuel Allen who invented the Flexible Flyer?

The very same.  He was evidently quite the avid golfer and Tillinghast cited his design work in 1911 after Allen laid out the new nine holes for Moorestown Field Club in NJ.

[JBergan]

The same Samuel Allen who invented the Flexible Flyer?

The very same.  He was evidently quite the avid golfer and Tillinghast cited his design work in 1911 after Allen laid out the new nine holes for Moorestown Field Club in NJ.

Very interesting.  I knew that he did M'town Field Club, but had no idea he did anything else.  

[Brad Klein]

An early 9-hole loop started at the current fifth hole (played as 5-6-17-18-1-then an abandoned par-3 hole-2-3-4) and included the wackiest 180-yard blind par-3 you'll ever (not) see, Pocono Manor-East's current 3rd. I doubt Ross ever designed it. It was totally blind, over a hill that crested at 150 yards, then straight downhill beyond, to a 1,300 square foot semi-circular green pitched in the opposite direction. If Ross designed that hole as well as 5 (330 yards and probably drops 100 feet), 6 (falls dead right) and 17 (400-yard 90-degree dogleg right reverse camber uphill) I'd be stunned.

My bet is the original loop was 5-6-17-3-4.

By the way, current holes 7-16 are wonderful, seemlessly integrated and include a stretch (8-15) that looks right out of Pine Needles. The par-3 7th is 77-yards, straight downhill.

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

That's exactly correct.

The original nine holes started where the wacky putting green exists, which is where the original golf shop was located.

The first nine progression was the present holes 5, 6, 17, 18, 1, then the abandoned par three, then 2, 3, 4 back up to the putting green.  

The 3rd hole is amazingly weird, as you mentioned and I've never understood the clubs contention that Ross was somehow involved.

What's more, in the Flynn archives that Wayne Morrison has there is both a routing plan and individual hole drawings for today's holes 7 through 16.   Interestingly, the routing plan makes accommodations for cottages to be built between each of the holes, something that was never actually done.

The drawings are in the same handwriting as those of Lancaster CC, and others of Flynn.

I still haven't the slightest idea where Ross plays into all of this, and why the club contends that he does.   It may be that he stopped over during his work at nearby Buck Hill in the 1918-1920 timeframe, but we do know for certain that the somewhat bizarre first nine holes were on the ground by 1912 (way before then) and that the second nine represented in the Flynn drawings was there by 1920.    

[Mike_Cirba]

Very interesting.  I knew that he did M'town Field Club, but had no idea he did anything else.  

Yes...I still don't have a smoking gun yet but I think I know where to find it.

Allen may also very well have designed the first nine holes at nearby Buck Hill Falls in 1907.   Donald Ross DID come in and build out a full 18 by 1920, and possibly also expanded it to 27 at that time, although local architect and first PGA President Robert White is also given credit for work there in 1926.

[Mike_Cirba]

Incidentally, the following is what appears on the Pocono Manor website.

Manor Golf History

The beginning of today’s 18-hole East Course dates back to 1911, when it is recorded that “the new golf course has been laid out and work on clearing of same is well under way.” In 1912 the first 9-hole course at Pocono Manor opened.

In 1925, the Inn had its greatest addition with the completion of the “Brick Tower Wing.” This 8-story building contained 106 rooms and was the most impressive structure in the entire region, commanding a view of over 50 miles under favorable conditions.

In 1927 the present 18-hole East Course was completed. Designed by Donald Ross to keep uphill climbing to a minimum, the 6,350-yard course had a Par of 73. It was also in 1927 that the golf headquarters were established at the present Golf House. Since opening, The East Course has been host to many of the legends of golf. Sam Snead, Arnold Palmer, Tommy Bolt, Gene Littler, Doug Ford, Jackie Burke, and Jerry Barber are just some of the famous players who have tested their skills here at The Manor.

We know that's not accurate simply because there were 18 holes there by 1920, and the newer nine matches the Flynn drawings exactly.

I'm simply looking to document the actual story, and separate truth from romantic lore.
 

[JeffTodd]

My wife was doing some work for Pocono Manor during their attempt to secure a gaming license and she forwarded me this picture which looks to be the ultra quirky 3rd. While it probably doesn't do much to answer the question of Ross it's interesting nonetheless. I'm not sure of its origin, so if anyone is familiar with the photo please feel free to chime in.

[Brad Klein]

That's the third green, viewed from the current 4th tee, looking south. That's an afternoon sun. The approach to that green is from the right. The road there leads to the 4th green, old first tee and the hotel another 1/2 mile on to the east.

[wsmorrison]

Brad,

Is there any archival evidence that Ross did anything at Pocono Manor East?  Perhaps his work took place after Flynn's redesign/design work in 1920, say in 1927 when the brochure states the course was completed.  We know Flynn designed 10 new holes (today's 7-16) in 1920 but are we sure that they were completed in 1920?  I have to dig into my notes to see what evidence there is of that.  Given the potential findings of Mike Cirba's research regarding the first iteration and the earliest aerials that Craig Disher provided indicates the course was built according to Flynn's plans, I don't know what Ross could have done there.

[wsmorrison]

I saw in my notes that the 1922 American Annual Golf Guide cites that Pocono Manor had 9 holes and 9 holes in construction at that time.

[Mike_Cirba]

I saw in my notes that the 1922 American Annual Golf Guide cites that Pocono Manor had 9 holes and 9 holes in construction at that time.

Wayne,

Yes, and by the 1924 Guide the full 18 had been built.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's an early artist rendering of the original 7th, looking to be at the 115 yards (and further to the left) distance shown on the Flynn drawing as opposed to it's present 77-yards, straight down drop.

[wsmorrison]

Last evening, Tom Paul and I noticed a stick routing of GMGC recently found at Gulph Mills (India Ink on linen) that was dated June 1916. Apparently Ross was in the area at that time.  The routing is the same as was built and drawn by a local draftsman whose name I cannot recall.  

Why do you think the tee was moved on the downhill old 7th?

[Sean_Tully]

The USGA has something that may help (I don't think this particular item has been digiized):

Record 1 of 1
Title Golf At Pocono Manor
Publisher Privately printed
Publication Date 1915
Location Pocono Manor, PA
Subject Pocono Manor Golf Club Notes
Fold out map, and course photos
Type Brochure
Classification No. 4A2/PA.PocM/b


---------------
http://www.usga.org/aboutus/museum/library/index.html

The Library is open by appointment, Monday through Friday from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. The facility is closed on weekends and national holidays. To schedule an appointment to use the collections, please call the Library at (908) 234-2300 or send an e-mail to library@usga.org.

I have the small brochure if you need an original copy let me know.

Tully

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

I can't imagine why the tee was moved.   The current tee is a blind, 77 yard chip shot off the end of the world.   As seen from this old postcard, the visuals of the original tee seemed to have a frightening aspect, but at least called for a backswing past hip-high.  

Sean,

I'd love to have a copy.   Thanks very much for the offer.  

As you know from your own research, sometimes the smallest bit of information holds unexpected clues.

Just let me know what you need.

[Mark_Fine]

Could it be the road    Neat photo Mike!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Could it be the road    Neat photo Mike!  

Mark,

I suspect going straight back across the road near the present 6th green would have made the shot even more strangely blind...like shooting into a yawning chasm after 40 yards of flatland.

I think the original tee was over to the left, probably on the same side of the road.  The angle of this pic seems to indicate that, doesn't it?   If my failing memory serves, today's shot is much more straight on, isn't it?  Also, since you can see the entire greeen, the only place I can imagine that being from is further left.

What do you think?

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
We should go up and play it together one day.  It is a very awkard hole.  Even at 77 yards it can be blind.  I think the road is the biggest limiting factor with what can be done.  

If you follow the news, there are lots of "issues" up in the Poconos these days with the casino licenses.  They are impacting the golf courses as well.  
Mark