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Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« on: July 05, 2007, 11:17:32 AM »
Gang,

I went to the pro-am yesterday. Followed Tiger's group for a few holes. He was playing with the president of AT&T and two enlisted military personnel - a lady from the Army and a gentleman from the Air Force. They seemed to be having a ball. We followed Bubba Watson for a while - nice guy. Signed everything in sight, was very chatty and friendly with his amateurs and the fans. Vijay was also very accommodating.

Here are a few shots of the new 10th hole:



JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2007, 11:20:45 AM »
Tim, did anyone give reasons for the routing changes?

RT

Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2007, 11:50:05 AM »
Tim,

Help me please with the layout now. Worked there summer of '81 and recognize the old pure 18th green site where there looks like there are tees to the new 10th?

RT

Mike Hoak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2007, 02:08:44 PM »
RT,

Your memory serves you correctly.  The old 18th hole was completely rebuilt and reversed and now serves as the 10th hole.  The tee for the new 10th hole is where the 18th green was located and the new 10th green is built on top of the site for the old 18th tee.  

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2007, 02:16:24 PM »
Mr. Hoak
Does that mean that the old 17th is now the 18th finishing hole or the 9th?   I haven't been there in a while, but plan on visiting sometime later this year.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2007, 03:01:32 PM »
JWL,

Old 9 is still 9, old 17 is now 18.  You have to walk back from new 10 green to get to new 11 tee, and you have to negotiate the route from new 18 green to clubhouse. Not ideal.

Click here for new course map.

Hey, how might you have solved this conundrum, if told you couldn't finish the course with a par 3, and there was no additional property?

Mark
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 03:04:08 PM by Mark Bourgeois »

JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2007, 03:07:28 PM »
Thanks Mark
I am wondering where they are going to put the spectator stands on 18...are they floating them in the lake???
It doesn't look like a good situation on plan.
What would present 9 be like as a finishing hole for the tournament?   Just curious.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2007, 03:15:06 PM »
How are the players getting from 18 green to the clubhouse - are they going around 10 or are they going back and then over to #1 of the Gold course?

Mark Bourgeois

Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2007, 03:16:59 PM »
What spectator stands! They've got sky boxes and chalets over there...on the other hand, the price for a grounds pass is $20, $65 the week -- can't beat it!

Nine is such a great hole; they're playing it as a 602-yard par 5, and with that ravine I imagine it will play as a three-shotter.  Wonder if they moved the tees up juust enough to tempt more to go for it...now that would be something to watch!

On the other hand, I imagine the "host" likes it long as it is. In the Post today, Fred Funk said he told Tiger in the locker room there's no way Funk could reach the 488-yard 6th in two.  Funk had his driver in hand when he said it, and all Tiger did was point to it and tell Freddy he was going to need more ammo.

Mark

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2007, 03:20:06 PM »
The other posters have it correct - the "new" 10th is the old 18th. The old 10th is now the 11th. The players walk back from the 10th green and up the hill to the 11th tee. The old 17th, now the 18th, should make a good finishing hole. It's a long downhill par 4 to a peninsula green out into the lake. There are spectator stands along the right side of the fairway and behind the 10th green. There are probably some across the lake from the 18th green. You won't have a ring of stands surrounding the 18th like at most PGA events. Mark is also correct, it's a long hike from the 18th green up toe clubhouse.

If they flipped the nines, then they'd be finishing on a 600 yard par 5. The distinguishing feature of that hole is a huge chasm in front of the green. Anyone going for the green in two and coming up short is left with a totally blind, completely up hill shot. During the pro-am, we saw Adam Scott go for it, come up short and make a great birdie.

I believe the reason for the changes is because the USGA did not want the '09 Am and the '11 Open ending on a par 3.

Tim
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 03:21:56 PM by Tim Taylor »

Mark Bourgeois

Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2007, 03:22:16 PM »
Hey, Tim, the ring of flags behind 10 green, is that the drop zone...for patriots?

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2007, 04:54:36 PM »
HA! Good one Mark.

Funny story about this 10th hole. I was camped out on the left hand side, by the bunker, right at the rope. Tiger hit his shot over there. He was no more than 10 yards away from me. I was all lined up to get a great picture of his follow through/pose as he flopped it on the green...

...until Stevie parked his big Kiwi ass right between me and Tiger.

Tim

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2007, 05:58:06 PM »
Used to work here, in 2003 and 2004--haven't been back since 2005.  I'm a little surprised to see the mature trees and fescues on the bank of the lake--this is right where the old green was.  I wonder if the large evergreens block the view of the new 10th hole and new 18th hole rom the clubhouse.  It's really a nice vista from the clubhouse patios and pools across that part of the golf course.  

I would really like to get back there to visit, it's the best membership I have ever worked for, and easily the best run place I have ever worked while in CMAA.  And the best prime rib on the planet from Chef Bell and Jim Long.

JWL--there's not really very much room for grandstands, spectators, and the like around 9 green.  It's basically surrounded by trees, deep ravine in front, with adjacent holes on both sides of the trees.  Plus, there's a chipping green directly behind 9 green.  So it's sort of a tight area.  If you saw it in person, you would understand; it's a little hard to describe.  Old 17/New 18 has a lot more going for it in terms of drama, with water on three sides of the green.  It's an astonishing sight to hit a tee shot down the middle on that hole, and walk off the teebox--when you hit the top of the hill, the fairway just rolls down to the lake in front of you; clubhouse is high on the hill behind it, very beautiful but imposing, and the green sits below you, surounded by water.  

Jerry--good question about circulation of players.  There are a number of spots there, immediate to that area, that are a little tight in terms of travelling from one place to another.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 06:37:35 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2007, 09:28:08 PM »
Before (1997)


After

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2007, 07:32:09 AM »
Doug

A new cart path was installed left of the lake by #18 connecting to the old cart path below the back tee of #1 Gold. The club typically runs a cart shuttle to retrieve walkers from the #18 green.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2007, 07:49:55 AM »
And who is responsible for this mess?

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2007, 07:55:29 AM »
The problem was less about ending the championship on a par-3 hole than about the extremely long, slow walk from 9th green to par-4 10th tee. Now it's a shorter walk to (new, par-3) 10th, a bit of a back up but still manageable to par-4 11th (former 10th), and a very uninspired walk from the 18th to clubhouse.

My experience with older courses is that whenever you tinker with the routing and introduce new holes or whatever, the land plan suffers and the whole place shrinks in stature. Congressional is no exception.


Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2007, 08:02:45 AM »
Tommy

For letters.....U S G A

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2007, 08:03:08 AM »
This hole is an upscale version of what Ted Robinson is famous for--the personal template.   I don't need to know who the architect is--it has to be Rees.  This hole seems to be built on just about every course he deigns these days.  Sure the aesthetics look different, but the bones are the same.  Just think, this was once a Devereux Emmett masterpiece--now it is a generic mess.

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2007, 08:03:39 AM »
The new hole which is no better than the old cost the membership $900K.

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2007, 08:47:38 AM »
Bill, one thing that jumps out at me about the "before" pic you posted above is how much smaller the trees are. Look at the pine tree to the right of the "old 18th" green / left of the "new 10th" tee. It is so much bigger now. Also look at the trees lining the creek that leads into the pond.

That's a lot of tree growth in only 10 years.

Tim

Justin_Zook

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2007, 09:25:55 AM »
So the formerly long walk from 9 green to 10 tee is replaced with a slightly long walk from 10 green to 11 tee and a pretty long walk from 18 green to the 19th hole?  

Brilliant.
We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2007, 09:36:09 AM »
The walk from 9th green to the old 10th tee would have you pass the base of the clubhouse where they have a small snackbar where most groups would stop for a drink, etc., so it was not a significant issue.

I had often speculated that when the course was designed, the 17th was felt to be important to the designer and the 18th was a means to get you back to the clubhouse from the 17th green.  When they played the PGA back in 1976, and I believe when they played the Kemper Opens at Congressional, they used 2 holes from the Gold Course in place of numbers 16 and 18.

The former #18 might not have been as long as the current hole but the left hand pin placement could be very intimidating, especially when you needed to make birdie as there was a pretty steep slope all around that side.  If they closely mowed it, a shot that was short, long or left could easily wind up in the water.  It seems to me that the new hole is easy for the pros as distance is not that tough for them with the ball is on a tee and the trouble around the green is not that severe.

I will say this, for the members, it could be a fun 19th hole.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2007, 09:45:58 AM »
Just think, this was once a Devereux Emmett masterpiece--now it is a generic mess.


Is this an accurate statement?

I played a four round event here 10 years ago and thought it was extremely difficult...and it was good...but masterpiece seems a stretch to me. Would you guys that know the course better than I consider it one of the great courses along the eastern seaboard?

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:New 10th hole at Congressional (pics)
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2007, 10:04:43 AM »
Does anyone know specifically what they hoped to attain by changing the structure and flow of the course this time around?  What strategic merits did they wish to test that would not receive examination with the old layout, which at this point is pretty much Jones and Jones anyway?

In 1930, Ross had altered/added a few holes with the extra yardage provided by the opening par 6's (#1 and #10), but the routing and greens remained fairly consistent w/Emmet's original design. RTJ made significant changes to the course in '57.  The club brought Rees back in '89 to make significant changes to the routing, and I believe he has consulted for the club ever since.


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