[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

KOHLER, Wis. - Bruce Vaughan held his own when he played his first senior major in May.

The Hutchinson golfer was briefly in the top 10 during the third round of the Senior PGA Championship at Kiawah Island, S.C., before finishing 24th at 5-over par.

After playing practice rounds Monday and Tuesday, Vaughan said 5 over for this week's U.S. Senior Open sounds pretty good.

"Compared to Kiawah, it's harder," Vaughan said Tuesday after playing a morning practice round. "At Kiawah you had room to drive it. Some of the fairways here are 18 yards wide. And the greens weren't as severe."

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Asked what he thought about the course, two-time U.S. Open champion Curtis Strange smiled and thought hard for a few seconds.

"It's interesting," he said. "It's dramatic. It's very, very hard. It's got Pete Dye written all over it. It's very dramatic. It's very hard."

The Ocean Course at Kiawah Island is reputed to be the toughest golf course in America but many who competed in the Senior PGA Championship in May at Kiawah said the Straits was more difficult.

"Oh, I think so," Strange said. "I think this is harder than Kiawah, I really do."

"Going purely by the elements of the golf course design, I'd say this is more difficult than Kiawah," Morris Hatalsky said. "There's more severity here. It's more penal. You have bail-outs at Kiawah. I honestly don't think there are any bail-outs here."

Since I've never had the chance to play Whistling Straits, how would you compare the two.  Which is more challenging, fairer, more fun to play?

[Joe Fairey]

I've played both several times...on a normal day, the Straits course is tougher tee-green, and also the green complexes are more severe...having said that...on a day with 20-25 mph winds, there is nothing harder than the Ocean course...no fun..

[Ted Kramer]

I haven't played either.
But the The Ocean Course is WAAAYYYYY higher up on my list of "want to plays".


-Ted

[PThomas]

i think the Ocean Course is harder

[John Kavanaugh]

i think the Ocean Course is harder

P,

Have you played both and if so on which course would you lose more balls.  I have not played WS but it looks like it provides less recovery opportunities which seems vital to the higher handicap.  I could go so far to say the the Ocean Course is Dye minimalism.  What do you think?

[PThomas]

i think the Ocean Course is harder

P,

Have you played both and if so on which course would you lose more balls.  I have not played WS but it looks like it provides less recovery opportunities which seems vital to the higher handicap.  I could go so far to say the the Ocean Course is Dye minimalism.  What do you think?

John

I've played them both more than once and think the Ocean is the hardest course i've EVER played...take #2 at the Ocean, a dogleg left par 5 with a big carry for one's tee shot, then a 2nd which has to contend with unplayable lies possible on both sides of the fairway and a water hazard before the green, if i remember correctly...a definite wakeup call after a benign first hole...other potential killers off the top of my head are 16, with its HUGE bunker to carry on your third, and of course the 17th...which i somehow hit three times in regulation and made three pars!

both courses have plenty of places to lose balls

OCean is less manufactured-looking then some other Dyes..

and while I feel the Ocean is the hardest course I've ever played, WS is a pretty close 2nd to it

[Mark Bourgeois]

I don't go in for the "which is more difficult" thing, but I've played both and prefer the Ocean Course.  I'd play probably 8 or 9 rounds out of ten on it vs. Whistling Straits.

I prefer an ocean wind to a lake wind.

Seriously, I enjoyed the angles of play more, the par 3s more, and the vistas more. It just felt like a better walk.

[Brent Hutto]

I have a friend who has played both courses under competitive conditions. He found the Ocean Course exceedingly difficult in any significant wind (20mph+) but perhaps only fairly difficult in calm conditions. OTOH, he told me that Whistling Straits was the most difficult test of driving he could recall ever playing even when there was no wind. In addition, the visual intimidation factor at Whistling Straits from the back tees can be off the charts on some holes.

IIRC, he said something to the effect of second shots at Whistling Straits making it tough to leave yourself reasonable putts although hitting the greens per se is doable if you hit a good tee shot. I think he missed more greens at the Ocean Course but probably putted better there once he was on the greens.

[John Shimp]

What about the natural dynamic of pro golfers always saying the thing they are playing now is harder than the last thing they played?  I saw most of the pros (save D Watson Romero and a couple others) make a mess out of the Ocean in the Senior PGA under average conditions there.   The regular tour pros didn't seems to struggle too much on WS in 2004 -- winning score was -8 or so with lots of bunching at the top.  Lets see how the Sr guys do.

[Andy Troeger]

I haven't played the Ocean, but I thought the Irish Cse at WS was as hard as the Straits itself. Hard not meaning good in that case, however.

The Ocean Cse is high on the priority list if I can get myself down that way!

I believe I played WS from the tips (not my idea) with one ball and shot 87 as a 3 hcp. I hit some errant drives, but they were findable.

[JWL]

Mike
When I played the Ocean course a few years ago when the ASGCA visited the area, we were told that there were no bunkers per se on the course...that all sand was considered a sand waste rather than a formal bunker.
Since the renovation, is that still the case.   I thought that was pretty interesting at the time, although most looked like formal bunkers.
Thanks for the info.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I don't recommend anyone go see the Whistling Straits.  I understand they are San Fransico's least favorite bar band.......

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[John Mayhugh]

i think the Ocean Course is harder

P,

Have you played both and if so on which course would you lose more balls.  I have not played WS but it looks like it provides less recovery opportunities which seems vital to the higher handicap.  I could go so far to say the the Ocean Course is Dye minimalism.  What do you think?

Dye minimalism is a great description of the Ocean Course.  It feels far less contrived than WS.  In fairness, I find a couple of the inland holes (5 & 6) so out of character with the rest of the course it may have excessive influence on my opinion.

I would play the Ocean 9 times to every 1 time at WS.  And it's not because it's easier.  Perhaps if there's no wind, WS might be easier, but how often will that be?  

[JWL]

Jeff
I am ROTFLMAO  and I don't do that nearly enough.

You always have been a witty guy, just in case no one has ever told you.  I may be one a minority that appreciates your sly humor, but I do.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Thanks and great!

Its great to be able to say, "I've got fan!" (s) is not a guarantee!

Now, I know I have as many fan of my humor as I do of my architecture.......although some would say its one and the same......

[Russ Miller]

Mike
When I played the Ocean course a few years ago when the ASGCA visited the area, we were told that there were no bunkers per se on the course...that all sand was considered a sand waste rather than a formal bunker.
Since the renovation, is that still the case.   I thought that was pretty interesting at the time, although most looked like formal bunkers.
Thanks for the info.

I just played there 3 weeks ago and I was told the same thing - no bunkers, just waste areas where you could ground your club.  If memory serves they played the Senior PGA that way as well.

[RJ_Daley]

From my limitted perspective, I think that with winds over 15-20, the Straits is way harder.  I only played Straits twice at about 67-6800yards both times and shot 104-102.  I played Kiawah on a rare and spectacular late January day that had moderate winds, from about 6400 yards and not having touched a club in months shot 90.  I thought that from the proper tees, which I was wise enough to use at TOC, it was quite fair.  The Straits has several total disaster holes looming which will blow a mid to higher handicapper up.  I think you can be a little more careful and recover when you go astray a bit better at TOC.  I'd much rather play TOC.

[TaylorA]

I haven't played the Ocean Course, so I'll just say that I wish I had the problem of deciding between the two. I know Whistling Straits is great - if, as indicated here, the Ocean Course is its equal or better, then either one would be a blast to play.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Can we call it a tie?  I played both well for me, in the low 80's for a first time around, but then, I usually play Dye courses well for some reason.

Are we talking tour pro, or average guy here? For some reason, a few holes at WS are more intimidating than those at OC, probably from all the built up hills and faux blowouts.

[Dan Herrmann]

I vote for a tie too.

By the way, it looks incredible in High Definition!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike I must come see you soon. I would think you have the tougher track day in and day out. However it is all in the preparation by the USGA. The course I saw a few weeks back was easy from 6500 yards if you kept the ball in play. The rough was a sure plus one though or lost ball. I played one round from Sr event distances, 6500 yards, and I am a Sr. lol It was hard to hit a driver more than on half the holes.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

They played all the sand as "transition areas" which I found quite interesting especially since the greenside sand on No. 4 and 13 are completely surrounded by tended grass.  How those aren't considered bunkers, I don't know.  Plus, we have pot bunkers on No. 4, 5, 9, 11, 12 and 13 in the fairways that are completely surrounded by tended turf, not connected to the dunes.  They don't have fine sand like you would find on parkland course, instead they have coacina, a shell-sand.  But, regardless, I would think that they'd be considered bunkers.   But, what the heck do I know...

Looking at what is shown on TV, I would think that WS would be harder than TOC.  Smaller fairways, more penal bunkering, smaller and more sloped greens.  I'm not sure how much fun that would be.  We only got "America's Toughest Course" from the very back tees that measure almost 7,900 yards.  TOC is very fair and a lot of fun to play if you play the proper tees--even in the wind.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is very tough to compare to TOC for me. So different in almost every way.

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike: If they play them all as transition areas it would seem to me that you wouldn't have any rakes on the course.  On the other hand, my recollection is that at Pine Valley they have no rakes but the sand is considered a hazard.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

They had rakes...

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