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TEPaul

Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« on: June 30, 2007, 10:10:49 PM »
.....in matters that are relevent to the organization?

Today, these might include:

!. I&B
2. Amateur Status matters
3. Agronomy
4. Championship venues
5. The Playing Rules
6. The organization's responsibility in social engineering through golf
7. Open question on membership concerns

Today, polling one's constituency like the USGA's is a relatively simple and efficient matter---eg through emails, websites, public polls etc.

I'm looking forward to responses on here. Let's see you takes the part of the "elitist" and why and let's see who takes the position of global democracy and why.

Honestly, if someone else asked for my opinion on a thread like this I'd need to give the questions a lot of thought before answering.  ;)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2007, 10:16:14 PM »
Tom,

Polling the public is fine, if your goal is to determine public perception. Often, they lack knowledge of the facts that could be helpful, so perception is all you come away with....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 10:19:07 PM »
Absolutely NOT.

That's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard when it comes to golf.

Polling reflects a lack of perception and and a lack of leadership, and it leads to the, "trend of the week" mentality.

The R&A and the USGA have a distinguished history of being stewards of the game without the need for polling.

Once you poll, you abdicate your leadership role and are at the mercy of the results, which may be skewed and inaccurate for a variety of reasons.

Polling is truely a bonehead idea, and, I'm being as kind as I can be.

 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 10:20:29 PM »
No....
The whole thinks it is bigger than the parts(17000) and yet 14000 of the parts could care less.....what the whole thinks.....if they did they would not use vaseline on clubfaces, putting balls and roll the ball in tha fairways.....JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2007, 10:21:27 PM »
Joe Hancock,

Did you hear about the poll that involved 10 wolves and 3 sheep on the question of what's for dinner tomorrow night ?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2007, 10:22:07 PM »
Bonehead...I equated you more to a meathead type.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2007, 10:22:41 PM »
Joe Hancock,

Did you hear about the poll that involved 10 wolves and 3 sheep on the question of what's for dinner tomorrow night ?

No...and this better be funny..... :)
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2007, 10:23:26 PM »
No, they shouldn't poll. They should just make smart decisions on their own.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2007, 10:50:05 PM »
No... Leaders take charge and lead. Committees poll and do nothing.

What makes a leader become a Custer rather than a Lincoln are those that follow...

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2007, 11:19:31 PM »
I too think it's not a good idea.  There are some things in life that need a beneavolant dictator.  This is one of them.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2007, 12:31:49 AM »
Poll'em or have them vote. It doesn't matter as long as you do the exact opposite of what 66.7 percent of them want.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Peter Pallotta

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2007, 12:35:08 AM »
TE,
I can't answer the question in terms of elitism or democracy. I think polling is simply a tool, and as with any tool the results depend almost entirely on the hand that wields it.

I think that polling techniques have become increasingly sophisticated, and can factor in/out a whole range of variables, as in an individual respondent's obvious or probable lack of basic knowledge on a given subject/question. (As Joe H points out, though, polling can still be used by some organizations or governments simply to gauge - and then act on - public 'perceptions'.)

I also think it's important to remember that one can poll without necessarily being obliged to respond or react to the results in any way. And I don't think that simply researching an issue/question through public polls needs to imply a lack of leadership. IMHO, what one DOES with the results is the real test of leadership; especially if the polls tell a story that no one in a leadership role wanted to hear.  

So, should the USGA use public opinion polls? I'd say "yes". But I would qualify that, and I think the USGA should proceed cautiously (not timidly, but smartly).

What I mean is, I think there's a difference between the USGA using polls and a government/corporation using them.  A government or corporation (say a car company) can poll widely and randomly, and more importantly can do it anonymously.  (We've all had those telephone calls, and if you've ever agreed to answer the questions you realize that they're phrased so that, at best, one could only guess at who's commissioned them.)

I think the USGA is different: first, the nature and specificity of the questions would probably leave little doubt as to which organization has commissioned the poll. But, more importantly, the USGA has a large membership that reasonably and legitimately could be expected to serve as the sample group. And THERE'S the problem/challenge, because if the USGA polls its MEMBERSHIP, then most of what I've said above probably goes out the window.        

If the USGA polls its membership, I think that membership will expect (and have every right to expect, it seems to me) that their answers/consensus opinion will a) be made publicly available, and b) carry a great deal of weight with USGA brass. The question is: is the USGA prepared to give those opinions that weight?

I think that's the KEY question, because whether it's rule changes or equipment or championship venues, a USGA membership that has recently been polled, and has seen the results of those polls published, would probably react very badly to having, in the event, their opinions ignored by the executives. "Then why the hell did they ask us in the first place?" they might ask. And THAT scenario would be, I think, a dangerous development for the USGA, and a serious blow to its authority and credibility.

I think the USGA might be wise to think about polling as widely and randomly as governments/corporations do, and to consider happily and aggressively advertising the fact that they ARE undertaking such a poll.  For example, they could tell one and all that "the USGA has commissioned a wide-ranging and comprehensive poll through which it seeks to garner a broader and deeper understanding of the current state of the game in America".  That way, no one - neither USGA members nor the general golfing public – could be under any illusion that the USGA was or felt compelled to make decisions that MIRRORED the answers it got. (And it would also be clear that the USGA wasn’t restricting the poll to its MEMBERSHIP, and so could not be expected to honour its membership’s wishes.)

In short, the USGA should poll the public; it could not help but learn SOMETHING about the state of the game, and that knowledge in and of itself can't be bad.  

Sorry TE, a long post, but it was an interesting question. And by the way, I'm not a pollster myself, and know about them only from what I read in the papers.

Peter      
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 12:57:39 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2007, 02:58:10 AM »
I am not a polling or statistical expert, but I would have to think they would have to be very careful about how they do it. Otherwise, they might get 66.7% no opinion, or at least that many that don't know enough about some of the issues to have an intelligent opinion. I suppose if they get experts that know how to ask the right things the right ways, it could be a useful exercise. But, as I said, I am not an expert so I am speculating on that.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2007, 06:45:41 AM »

Today, polling one's constituency like the USGA's is a relatively simple and efficient matter---eg through emails, websites, public polls etc.

HUGE assumption.

Just a few early morning thoughts on why this idea doesn't sit well despite its good intent:

The USGA is not set up and does not run as a democracy.

Why are my dues paying for the salaries of those people who are supposed to make these decisions in the first place?

Am I getting a portion of my dues back to be on someone’s long-distance committee or if my ideas aren't adopted?

Can you imagine the time and money and new committees that would germinate overnight to explore the results of “Project Ouimet” or to pull together the report on Rule 99-X?  Who is paying for THIS?  (Hint:  it’s not coming out of anyone’s salary, and the intern season at Golf House is only three months long.)


Alfie

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2007, 06:52:30 AM »
Fascinating question Tom,

I'm pleased that you put I & B at the top of your list as this is the most critical area that requires addressing by both of the ruling bodies, IMO.
I have to agree with some of the comments which vaguely intimate that most of Joe Blog golfers don't give damn about golfs current affairs - but is that really the point, and a fair excuse to wipe all and sundry controversial (golf) issue's under the carpet ? I'd guess that the R & A / USGA would be quite happy to toddle along with their administrations under the status quo !
However. Not only do we have a mutual democracy on both sides of the pond, we now have a means of feasible enhancement of that thing we call democracy - internet technology ! As far as the ball issue is concerned, it has been suggested that the ruling bodies are running scared of the "industry" in respect of the ruling bodies actually doing something about solving the problem (if there is one...ha - ha ! :P)
I have suggested for some time now, that the USGA / R & A could utilise the marvels of the internet to procure mass support from bona fide golfers all over the world, in the unlikely event of them making a brave decision to curb damaging technology effects upon golf - the sport ?
Personally, I have literally thousands of golf contact addresses in my PC. I would be amazed if the ruling bodies did not have instant contact with every single club membership on their books ? How easy then, to gauge a conscensus of opinion from the people who matter most to the sport and better still, eradicate this unknown threat of possible litigation against - THE SPORT !
As you once said yourself, Tom - "it's a matter of having 'the will' to act" (roughly speaking)
IMO, the ruling bodies could attain that "will" by requesting the support and backing of their memberships after firstly explaining why action needs to be taken in the first instance.
So, on this global issue of I & B, I would certainly say YES to polling public opinion....but "no" to many of the other day to day issue's that will arise. Every elected government, committee, administration etc., has to be trusted to do their utmost to protect the "will" of the people and see their wishes carried out. But that does not mean (require) public involvement in every single issue. The R & A / USGA are no different IMO.
In Scotland, we now have Devolution (full Independence is coming  ;)) and it's working reasonably well. Elected upon approx 60% of the people eligible to vote. The people who care enough to express their opinion !
I reckon worldwide democracy will see the apathy percentage drop considerably as new voting technologies are introduced.  Whether that is good or bad - is another matter. But it will be democratic !
Golf could start the ball rolling now ?

I think you may have unleashed a hornets nest with this thread, Mr Paul  ;)

Alfie.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2007, 07:53:36 AM »
Tom Paul,

How bout if instead of taking representative samples of the golfing population, the ex comm composition and the pres were representative of the golfing population?

There's nothing inherently wrong with an organization led by elites, except when that organization overly relies on one segment of the population it purports to serve.

Then, its legitimacy may be called into question.

Mark

Mike Sweeney

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2007, 07:59:09 AM »

Today, polling one's constituency like the USGA's is a relatively simple and efficient matter---eg through emails, websites, public polls etc.


No to polling. The questions that the USGA are faced with are way too complex for a consumer poll.

I approached David Fay about doing Qualitative Research (focus groups for my buddy Geoff S ;)) when they bought the Russian Tea Room. I happen to own 50% of a Qualitative Research firm through the magic of marriage. It was obvious that they would be serving a completely different demographic on 57th Street as opposed to Far Hills, New Jersey. I spoke to David Fay, he was perfectly nice and he had no clue that he was in a different market and that a hard core golf museum would not work in NYC. How many people here, a hard core group, have even visited Far Hills? Needless to say the museum did not open and they probably got bailed out by rising real estate prices.

However, no research will work until there is a direction set by the USGA. Are they:

- Trying to serve the current base of hard core golfers or occasional golfers.

- Are they truely trying to grow the game, a couple of commercials at the US Open don't count.

- Who are their competitors? If it wasn't for me I think my kids would prefer the X Games at all times.

Tom, this goes back to my premise that the USGA needs professional management. As a consumer I hope they stay right where they are today. Rounds are down and owners and operators are finding lots of ways to "make a deal" with me as a consumer. Other than weekends, it is easy to play at many public and private courses these days. At one point in time I looked with friends at being an owner, and it just does not work in enough places these days to take that risk, IMHO.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 08:01:25 AM by Mike Sweeney »

TEPaul

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2007, 08:14:18 AM »
Mark:

What do you know about the various members of the USGA's Executive Committee, who they are, where they come from and what kind of consituency they inherently represent, or are you just making some assumption that you know who they all are and whose interests in the golfing community they represent?

Another aspect of the present and current USGA is it seems like the Executive Committee, perhaps the recent presidents, have in some ways taken the association in a new direction that departs from the way some things used to be.

For instance, in the last 4-6 years or so it appears the nominating process and procedure has changed to rely less on some kind of continuity borne of a reliance on past presidents.

Another area of marked departure from the way things used to be is this whole outreach into commercial ties.

Are these seeming watershed or seachange moves going to be good or bad for the association's future?

Personally, I have no real idea. I guess only time will tell as is generally the case with important shifts in direction in any organization.

One thing is clear, and that is the Executive Committee and the rest who run and manage the organization have some pretty strong concerns about the long term economic future of the organization and frankly probably the general economic future of golf. Some may not like the decisions made in that vein but I think we would be wrong to say that the organization does not have some pretty talented people in that way who are looking carefully at this situation and potential future problem.

One does wonder how the USGA would operate differently and/or be perceived differently if they decided to rely far more on decisions via a really powerful Executive Director of the ilk of a Joe Dey.

It seems to me back in that day the Excecutive Committee of the USGA acted more in the background or in more of an oversight function and less as a day to day operating entity.

All I know is for some reason these not-for-profit golf associations, including most of the regionals as well as the USGA are structured in the same way with these volunteer boards who use their function and power in various ways and degrees.

But since the test of time is one of the most valuable tools in most all things it seems like those golf associations who appear to be the most effective and successful through the years have really impressive Executive Directors and generally some very long term ones as well.

The MET and Jay Mattola just might be the best example. But the MET and the other regional associations just don't do or are responsible for some of the tough issues in golf today that the USGA is responsible for. I&B is probably the best example and the toughest future issue of all, and maybe by a country mile, although general "bottom line" balancing maybe catching up fast these days.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 08:31:44 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2007, 08:36:21 AM »
I would like a poll on Walter Driver, though.  I can't tell you how much I hate where he's taking the USGA.  Of course, my opinion is based on what I read (cutting employee benefits, firing people, etc..), not personal experience.  

But that's another discussion for another day.

TEPaul

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2007, 08:51:32 AM »
"Tom, this goes back to my premise that the USGA needs professional management."

Mike:

The day the USGA can't attract 15 people to populate the board and an Executive Director who are qualified and capable enough to run their own affairs is the day I stop becoming a dues paying member and the day I'd recommend other dues paying members do the same.

There's no question in my mind that day will have arrived when they need to use their own financial resources to pay some professional management company to do it for them.

Dan:

But what would you say if the USGA gets to the point where they simply cannot afford to pay their employees and their attendant benefits?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 08:55:25 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2007, 09:11:47 AM »
Tom,
Obviously, you're correct...  But don't they have a pretty big war chest right now?  Unless they're putting money away for legal issues that would arise if they started getting involved with equipment regs (which would be OK with me)

TEPaul

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2007, 09:25:38 AM »
Dan:

I just can't answer that as I really don't understand the technicalities or the legalities of how an organization like the USGA needs to shift or compartmentalize resources between operating needs and their foundation.

Why did they ramp up their worth from what it used to be to what it is today---eg perhaps $200 million plus?

Yeah, I guess they originally did it as a warchest to handle potential manufacturers law suits over I&B.

You see most of the people on this website blame the USGA for that for some reason and just give a total free pass to these manufacturers for legal saber rattling at the drop of a hat. They just say crap like: "Oh, it's just business as usual or they're just looking out for THEIR bottom line."

I think that is total bullshit---just total bullshit.

I think one of the most important results of an opinion polling campaign could be that it may show that golfers would tell the manufacturers to just bugger off with this incessant legal saber rattling against the USGA/R&A.

However, we live in such a litigous world these days that the manufacturers would probably sue the USGA anyway for conducting a poll like that. What possible grounds would a manufacturer use in such a lawsuit?

They'd probably call it both defamation AND restraint of trade.

 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 09:34:56 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Sweeney

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2007, 09:33:59 AM »
"Tom, this goes back to my premise that the USGA needs professional management."

Mike:

The day the USGA can't attract 15 people to populate the board and an Executive Director who are qualified and capable enough to run their own affairs is the day I stop becoming a dues paying member and the day I'd recommend other dues paying members do the same.

There's no question in my mind that day will have arrived when they need to use their own financial resources to pay some professional management company to do it for them.

Tom,

Go back and look at the history of National Geographic. It started with a core group of scientist and grew to a point where it got beyond them because of their popularity. In the shift to the modern day National Geographic they clearly alienated some of their original core. In the case of the USGA, that might be you Tom.

Now the USGA started as an organization that represented Chicago, Shinnecock, Newport.....all exclusive private clubs. They have had a problem growing beyond that base and Bethpage was a first step, and Torrey Pines was a second step but I don't see significant follow up. Where is minority representation on the 15 member board? I am sure Walter Driver is a nice person, but you can't have someone who is a member of Pine Valley, Augusta and Peachtree be the head of the USGA. Right or wrong, it is a media/pr world these days.

Again, I don't have a problem with the USGA staying like it is. However, you can't then say that you represent all golfers including the ones that play today at Cobbs Creek and Augusta Municipal Golf Course.

If you try to do your poll questions at those two courses today, it would be like a David Letterman sketch.

TEPaul

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2007, 09:39:04 AM »
MikeS:

Where is the "minority representation" on the USGA's board?

I think you need to take a closer look at the USGA's board, Mike.  ;)

Was National Geographic ever a "not for profit" organization or was it a business corporation?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 09:40:07 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should the USGA poll public opinion....
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2007, 09:55:17 AM »

The day the USGA can't attract 15 people to populate the board and an Executive Director who are qualified and capable enough to run their own affairs is the day I stop becoming a dues paying member and the day I'd recommend other dues paying members do the same.

That's part of the problem ...... cyclical management.

You can't achieve consistent policy when management is on a two year revolving door basis.

Continuity is absent because it never gets established.

I"ve told you that a hundred times or more

Now go poll the cows and chickens at HappyDale Farms and see what they want to do today
[/color]


« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 09:55:42 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

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