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Mark Bourgeois

In his review of The Links at Hope Island, Ran writes:

"The design firm of Thomson/Wolveridge & Perrett inherited nothing but a flat, featureless field located some twenty minutes from Queensland's coast. From this unpromising beginning, the architects have created one of the dozen most strategic courses built in the past sixty years."

That assertion has entertained me now for several years.  I thought about going to the source for the other 11 -- booorriiinng!!!!

Besides, people on this board know so much more.

Thus, so far, our list is, in no particular order:
1. The Links at Hope Island
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.

What would you add and why?

What I liked in particular about Ran's comment is its association with a less-than-obvious choice.  The trappings of the place are carts-only, equipped with GPS, traversing "fly overs" across busy highways.  Credit to the man for thinking independently.

(I can't speak to whether the course belongs in the Thinker's Dozen, but it's definitely strategic.)

What are other sleepers that might creep into the list?

Mark

PS In a naked, undoubtedly futile attempt to short-circuit how these threads usually go in the early posts, here's an attempt at disambiguation, courtesy Wethered and Simpson:

"In the 'strategic' (school) the effect is that one of two things happens to the player whose handicap is in the neighbourhood of scratch; either his good shot, which is not quite good enough, is trapped by a bunker placed at roughly 210 yards from the tee, just off his most favourable line to the hole; or his bad shot is in such a position that unless he brings off a very exceptional shot he cannot reach and remain on the green.  This result is gained by the orientation of the green and the position of the wing hazards guarding the approach." (Emphasis original.)

Mark
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 09:08:38 PM by Mark Bourgeois »

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Maybe Sand Hills and Ballyneal?

Michael Christensen

TPC Sawgrass came right to the top of my head....there was nothing there but jungle and muck


Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Stadium course at PGA West.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I haven't played it, but from reading the review, I would have to think Ran would put Sand Hills in that group. I think Matthew's instincts are correct with respect to that one.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sam Morrow

What about Harbour Town?

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
To my eye and of the one's I've played I would add Bandon Trails, Kingsbarns and Black Mesa.  I've only played them once, but I could see multiple options immediately.  

I'm sure other courses have multiple options as well but I couldn't readily identify them -- maybe I need to pay more attention, or maybe they're subtle and need repeat play (ok -- WHEN?!) :D

Edit: I just re-read the title...and it appears I've inter-changed the term "stragtegic" with "multiple options".  Are they in fact synonyms?  
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 09:24:16 AM by Matt MacIver »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
I really like Rustic Canyon. There is room from the tee so there are angles. It is one of the few inland North American courses that a good player will think about bouncing in an approach. It's easy to see that different hole locations require different strategies. Around the greens you've got a variety of up and down options. There is a wide variety of holes.

Does it make the Top Dozen? That's rare air, but the place certainly doesn't bore.

Joe Bentham

Edit: I just re-read the title...and it appears I've inter-changed the term "stragtegic" with "multiple options".  Are they in fact synonyms?  
No.  Although I'm not sure I understand "multiple options".  Do you mean alternate fairways?  Because even the most rudimentary golf hole has options.  Right or left side of the fairway, driver off the tee or lay back, putt or chip, etc.  A strategic course constantly rewards the player for being in the right place by making the next shot easier.  Conversely a strategic course will penalize the player who doesn't think his way off the tee and up the fairway with harder shots.  Golf holes don't need alternate fairways or other gimmicks to be strategic.  The best holes are subtle in their strategy, revealing themselves over multiple rounds...

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
It seems to me that Harbor Town is not strategic, because it demands specific shots within narrow confines and bites you hard if you miss.  I can't say for sure, as I only have watched over the years on TV.

I'd say you need width and various avenues within that width, and angles and contours within the greens and surrounds that present differing approaches in order to get strategy going.

I'd say Tobacco Road, and True Blue by Strantz fit those criteria and maybe aren't as prevalent in the mind as Sand Hills, Bally, WH, Sawgrass, TOC Kiawah and the like.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mark Bourgeois

Edit: I just re-read the title...and it appears I've inter-changed the term "stragtegic" with "multiple options".  Are they in fact synonyms?  
No.  Although I'm not sure I understand "multiple options".  Do you mean alternate fairways?  Because even the most rudimentary golf hole has options.  Right or left side of the fairway, driver off the tee or lay back, putt or chip, etc.  A strategic course constantly rewards the player for being in the right place by making the next shot easier.  Conversely a strategic course will penalize the player who doesn't think his way off the tee and up the fairway with harder shots.  Golf holes don't need alternate fairways or other gimmicks to be strategic.  The best holes are subtle in their strategy, revealing themselves over multiple rounds...

Well put. It seems like rustic canyon is the closest American analog to links at hope island in that each seek to replicate the design elements of a links without
being anywhere close to linksland.

Regarding "rare air," I don't think Ran was saying the dozen best post WWII courses, just the ones that have the greatest number of shots / holes along the lines of Joe's description. Quantity not quality, although the quantity of such shots and holes may confer quality!

Sand hills sounds like a possibility, as do kingsbarns and pac dunes, although I haven't played any so can't really comment.

Not sure about sawgrass / PGA west. What about The Golf Club? Barnbougle?

Mark

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
No.  Although I'm not sure I understand "multiple options".  Do you mean alternate fairways?  Because even the most rudimentary golf hole has options.  Right or left side of the fairway, driver off the tee or lay back, putt or chip, etc.  A strategic course constantly rewards the player for being in the right place by making the next shot easier.  Conversely a strategic course will penalize the player who doesn't think his way off the tee and up the fairway with harder shots.  Golf holes don't need alternate fairways or other gimmicks to be strategic.  The best holes are subtle in their strategy, revealing themselves over multiple rounds...

I'm not talking about multiple fairways and the like, let's just say two alternate methods to get to the green.  One approach might be a high fade, to carry a bunker.  Another might be a low runner and using a left-side mound near the green to push the ball towards the hole.  

If I have these option I can decide how to play the hole, based on my skill, strengths, weather, etc.  I might change the way I play this hole day-to-day, based on the above.  

To truly have multiple options on a hole is a very tough thing to design -- imagine a left or right or long or short drive then giving you another two choices from there to play the hole.  And once on the green, most choices are narrowed down to one, speed and line notwithstanding (and how far you want to come- backer to be!)  The further from the flag the more options become possible -- if designed correctly.  IMO.  

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I too am surprised to see Pete Dye courses mentioned so often here. Pete likes to demand specific shots and might be thought more as shot testing than strategic.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Garland, I would agree with that in terms of both HarbourTown and Kiawah -- I've generally only found one way to play a hole, and really Sawgrass too for that matter aside from maybe a risk-reward par 5 here or there.  

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
What about that other LA course built in a Canyon?  Riviera.  Designed by the king of options and the sultan of strategy, that noted rose grower George Thomas.

Mark, an interesting issue with Rustic, Hope island and Riviera is the lack of ground movement of all three - at least when compared to a number of other classic courses.

James B
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 08:08:59 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What about that other LA course built in a Canyon?  Riviera.  Designed by the king of options and the sultan of strategy, that noted rose grower George Thomas.

Mark, an interesting issue with Rustic, Hope island and Riviera is the lack of ground movement of all three - at least when compared to a number of other classic courses.

James B

James, this is about the last 60 years...but riveria would be a nice addition if it was in the last 100..  :)

Mark Bourgeois

Maybe Ran can tell us.


Where's the fun in that?

I'll throw out Bill Coore's first design, Rockport Country Club. Getting back to Wethered & Simpson's definition, and sounding like Smyers, there are a lot of places on that course where you're dead but don't realize it yet.

Coore defended par from the green mainly through big rolls that served to section the greens; the angle of these rolls relative to your position on approach serve to make your shot easier or harder.

For example, on the par 5 fifth, if you take the tiger line and succeed off the tee, you will be faced with a long forced carry to a green where the rolls run roughly parallel to your angle.  So they offer no distance-control assistance and in fact punish mishits of the longitudinal variety (common error for long irons and woods).  This being a strategic design, if you miss anywhere but really short, your "penalty" is exacted via a difficult next shot or putt: you've got to putt (or chip) over a roll (or two).

The (dim) view from just right of the middle tees: the safe route is left; for the tiger route you must challenge the bunker and trees in the middle and cut off as much as you're comfortable. (Sorry for poor-quality pics!)





The hole has a double fairway, one for the safe route, one for the tiger route.  In contrast to their position viz the tiger route, the rolls lie perpendicular to the safe route.

That means if taking the safe route you must lay up on your second shot to a distance you are comfortable with.  Mess up "latitudinally" (i.e., distance, a common error with wedges) and you're out of position, thanks to the rolls.

The green; point of view is safe route





James, you can add Rockport to the list of flat courses, although Coore, like Peter Thomson, did run the bulldozer over the property and create washboards, humps, hollows, mounds, and slight elevation changes.

They both had the benefit of wind on their respective properties, though.  Turns out, Rockport is one of the windier places in the U.S.

Mark
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 09:22:54 PM by Mark Bourgeois »

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark

my bad!  Didn't read the question properly (re past 60 years).  It was the Canyon connection that linked me from Rustic Canyon back to that old Riviera (80 years old).  Perhaps Rustic will be surrounded by houses like Riviera in years to come.

Regarding other flat, interesting, strategic courses ... Have you seen Alice Springs GC (centre of Australia)?  It is about 20 years old, a Thompson WP course with some barranca style washouts and canyon type rock outcrops.  I recall it was fun to play, and I think strategic in design, although I couldn't spell strategic let alone know what it meant 16 years ago when I played there.

Re Hope Island - I recall when I played there.  Front nine we played off the members tees, and I was hopelessly confused as to what to do.  I kept interacting with the fairway hazards, for the first time on a golf course. That fairway bunker on #2 set the scene for the whole nine.  On the second nine, we played off the championship tees, and I just blasted straight at the fairway bunkers, ane would wind up 10 yards or so short of them, then play long irons to the green.  I loved the back nine, despite having irretrievable balls just off the fairway on #18 (I knew where they were, but they were a bit too wet to retrieve).  

An interesting juxtaposition on a strategic course when comparing which tees to play from, isn't it.  Right tees leads to confusion and challenge, wrong tees leads to simplicity!

James B
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 10:08:35 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mark Bourgeois

James, nice call on the tees.

No I haven't been to Alice Springs -- maybe when I finally get to Uluru I'll see the place.

One thing I didn't like about some of the pot bunkers was the way they were raised up, almost as though they were being "presented" to the golfer.  There was one in particular on the back nine, smack in the middle of the fairway. (The 12th?) Ran's writeup has an example of this, namely the pots on the 11th:



As a result, although providing visual intimidation, their design tended to deflect all but the most earnest balls. Happily, they didn't do this for all such bunkers and there are a few only to happy to receive a shot!

I played the course both times from the middle tees.  You missed an opportunity to drive the green on 16! Or lose your ball in the rough...

Interesting hole that uses a hill instead of a bunker on the inside-left of the dogleg, has a lot of crap waiting for you if you carry the hill but end up short or left, and has a dropoff behind the green.  Hmm, wonder what hole served as inspiration for that one...

Mark

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark

Uluru (Ayers Rock) is 'only' 300 miles from Alice Springs!

The thing that struck me when I played Hope Island was the open grate drains in the fairways and the greens that were raised perhaps 12 inches from the surface.  It does rain unbelievable amounts there, so I am not surprised that the bunkers are slightly raised.  Gathering bunkers would gather a lot of rain (think Florida for a US equivalent climate).

When I played there, they still had bent grass greens.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cuscowilla - - wide fairways set up with huge risk/reward opportunities, driveable or near driveable par 4's, two Cape holes, widely varied greens calling for all kinds of approach shots (many with multiple choices for any given shot to many cup locations).

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Stadium course at PGA West.


Wow Tim!!! Strategic?? I think PGA West is one of ther most penal courses I've ever seen!! ???
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

michael j fay

1. The Honors Course
2. The Golf Club
3. Teeth of the Dog
4. Jupiter Hills
5. The Concession Club
6. World Woods Pine Barrens
7. Forest Creek North
8. El Diablo
9. Chechessie Creek
10. Kingsbairn
11. The Heathland at the Legends
12. All other Doak, Dye and Crenshaw and Coore Courses

Mark Bourgeois

Michael, I was wondering if someone would put up Legends.

How bout splaining the merits of each in the strategery dept? Honors and teeth surprise me!

Mark


Wyatt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Am I missing something? No one mentions Pacific Dunes:

#2 Successfully navigating the shoe bunker, and the even more ball blistering bunker left of it (don't ask why I know this).

#3 With emphasis on the second shot for positioning being paramount.

#4 Best strategic placement of a fairway bunker I have ever seen. I'd rather hit a pair of 3-irons on 4 than risk coming within 30 yards of that bunker

#5 If the hole location is front or middle, the proper play is to allow for the slope left to bring the ball to the green. With the hole location back (and left) it is 2, possibly 3 clubs more to utilize the slope near the back of the green.

I could go on and on, but most of these holes have been dissected over and over again on this site for quite sometime, which is why is suprises me that Pacific has yet to be mentioned.