What Are the "Dozen Most Strategic Courses Built in the Past 60 Years?"

[Wyatt Halliday]

Oh, my mistake not catching the heaping praise

I agree with Cowboys and Texas Star. The more I think about it, Texas Star is really quite strong. Nice piece of property, no houses, really good set of par 3's.

[Joe Bentham]

There are a lot of architects doing strategy.

I hope so.   Every architect intends for his course to be strategic, some are just better then others.  Strategic courses aren't a subdivision.

[michael j fay]

Mark:

Without being laborious:

The Honors offers many testing routes that allow for shorter, more open approachs and greens that can be approached from more strategic angles. Same is true for the Golf Club. The Teeth of the Dog is angles and wind. Concession offers differing routes, mucho macho and greens that will repel shots hit from safe places (the bunkering sets up the strategy).

The rest have most of the above with in a lesser degree.

I probably would have mentioned Pac Dunes had I played it.

The Heathlands is a very solid risk reward course and the list would be incomplete without it.

[David Stamm]

I haven't played nearly enough to come up with 12, but I'll nominate Rustic Canyon and Barona Creek.

[Kalen Braley]

I think as well that Pac Dunes is very strategic, but just sort of figured that went without saying....

There aren't many holes where you just hit it straight away and not think about your next shot...or being out of position for your next shot...

[Joe Bentham]

I think as well that Pac Dunes is very strategic, but just sort of figured that went without saying....

There aren't many holes where you just hit it straight away and not think about your next shot...or being out of position for your next shot...

name one.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Michael

I enjoy your opinions. Inducing labor is a guilty pleasure.

Mark

[Tim Leahy]

The Stadium course at PGA West.

Wow Tim!!! Strategic?? I think PGA West is one of ther most penal courses I've ever seen!!

But Dye does give you options, if you play for par instead of birdie you do have options and bail outs away from the hazards.

[Kalen Braley]

I think as well that Pac Dunes is very strategic, but just sort of figured that went without saying....

There aren't many holes where you just hit it straight away and not think about your next shot...or being out of position for your next shot...

name one.

The hole that comes to mind the most is 13.  Wide fairway, straight away hole, just hit the fairway.

[Joe Bentham]

Kalen-
There is way more room left then there looks from the tee.  The tee ball hit down the left is rewarded with a kick foward down the hill and the outside chance of running the ball up into the wind, at the least an easier approach angle.  The right side of the fairway, although more inviting from the tee, makes the second all carry.  Subtle?  Maybe.  Strategicless?  Nope.

[Kalen Braley]

Joe,

Fair enough, I can buy that.  But with that criteria, I think that would be inclusive of many holes that most would think are not very strategic.

The other hole I was going to mention was #11.  There is no ground approach, its pretty much try to get the ball somewhere on the green.  Yes bailing out to the right is better than missing left or short in the bunkers, but that would fit the subtle category once again.

And please don't get me wrong, PD is an amazing course, and 11 and 13 are both extremely gorgeous and well done holes.  I just don't think the strategic values are up to the criteria as is often discussed in here.

[Joe Bentham]

First off I think this thread should've been called the best courses of the last 60 years.  Because what is golf without strategy?  Secondly I think pacdunes stands up to a hole by hole disection, in fact I think it shines under such scrutiny.  She's much more then a pretty face.

[Kalen Braley]

Joe,

I don't think you have to get in a twist over this.  Other than those two holes, I can't think of another hole that isn't somwhere in the range of midly to very strategic.  I was only trying to explain why I made the original statement.

It is a great course, and it would belong on such a list if it existed.  

[Mark Bourgeois]

First off I think this thread should've been called the best courses of the last 60 years.  Because what is golf without strategy?  

Joe, of course every course demands the golfer compose a strategy for play of the holes, be it of the strategic, penal or heroic school.

I suggest you reread W&S's definition!

[Michael Dugger]

This is one of those threads which needs to meet the "Mucci standard" in order to be intelligibly discussed.

But based on "what I've heard" I'd figure:

1. Sand Hills
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Rustic Canyon
4. Ballyneal
5. Barnbougle Dunes
6. Friar's Head
7. Kiawah Island Ocen
8. Kingsley Club
9. Black Mesa
10.TPC Sawgrass
11.Tobacco Road
12.(Tie) Vict. Nat. and Links at Hobe Sound?

13. Fernandina Beach Muni

[Pete_Pittock]

Joe B,
For me 12 and 15. They're both just a bit to long for me to strategize length or angle for the third shot.
Kalen,
You just hit your second shot without any planning on #13?
Might as well add #4 to the list then

[Kalen Braley]

Joe B,
For me 12 and 15. They're both just a bit to long for me to strategize length or angle for the third shot.
Kalen,
You just hit your second shot without any planning on #13?
Might as well add #4 to the list then

Pete,

my only planning on #13 was get the ball in the fairway, and then on the 2nd shot don't hit it in the bunker or over the cliff. In the summer wind its a very, very tough par 4 and I would imagine most are just trying to get on in 2.  As for the green, it was the flattest on the course, to my memory, (but I may be corrected by Mr. Doak on this one), so I didn't see any advantage/disadvantage in that respect.

#4 on the other hand had a lot of strategy....

[Joe Bentham]

Pete
Where's Tom Doak when you need him!??  12 and 15 are as strategic as any on the course.  Quickly, you better be right with 2nd or 3rd shots on 12 or your faced with a shot over the bunker into the green, where as the approach from the right can run on.  15 starts at the tee when its down wind.  Is it driver?  Then again 2nd and 3rd shots must be hit left.  Right side of the green is dead to any pin.  Guess you didn't catch any of that your 2 or 3 times around.

[Tom_Doak]

It amazes me what people don't notice about a golf course their first time or two around.  I played golf a couple of years ago with one of our interns and two of my associates, and after the round we discussed the course ... the intern only noticed the features that had affected her play of the hole, and was amazed that the rest of us were discussing features that hadn't even come into play for any of us.

Anyway, Kalen, the thirteen green at Pacific Dunes is anything but flat.  There's a nasty false front and a little separate tier at the right front.  The hole was probably middle to back left when you played it where it's flatter.

I would agree with you that the 13th is not the most "strategic" hole on the course by the most commonly-recognized definition.  Most people seem to think you can't have strategy without two or three fairway bunkers and more at the green.  However, I think Joe did an excellent job of describing that hole, which is pretty much as we found it ... there is a natural advantage to holding your drive to the left, plus the approach from the right (over the bunkers and/or toward the cliff edge) is MUCH more intimidating.  I thought that was all the hole needed, considering it is also 440 yards into the wind.

[Kalen Braley]

It amazes me what people don't notice about a golf course their first time or two around.  I played golf a couple of years ago with one of our interns and two of my associates, and after the round we discussed the course ... the intern only noticed the features that had affected her play of the hole, and was amazed that the rest of us were discussing features that hadn't even come into play for any of us.

Anyway, Kalen, the thirteen green at Pacific Dunes is anything but flat.  There's a nasty false front and a little separate tier at the right front.  The hole was probably middle to back left when you played it where it's flatter.

I would agree with you that the 13th is not the most "strategic" hole on the course by the most commonly-recognized definition.  Most people seem to think you can't have strategy without two or three fairway bunkers and more at the green.  However, I think Joe did an excellent job of describing that hole, which is pretty much as we found it ... there is a natural advantage to holding your drive to the left, plus the approach from the right (over the bunkers and/or toward the cliff edge) is MUCH more intimidating.  I thought that was all the hole needed, considering it is also 440 yards into the wind.

Tom,

I should re-state that the 13th was one of the flattest as compared to the other greens on the course. I did interface with that front right section, and you correctly guessed the pin was back middle.

I also wanted to clarify that I was not being critical of this hole, as its nothing short of an awesome.  Only that when compared/contrasted with the others holes at PacDunes, its lesser on the strategic side, and off the charts on the beauty/wow factor/"lets stay here for awhile and soak it in" side.

Can I mail-order a hole like this for my home course?  

[Mark Bourgeois]

Curious to know whether anyone thinks any of the crop of courses from 2007 onwards might qualify for Ran's list of "dozen most strategic courses of the past 60 years."

It's a great test, this list.  What about Chambers Bay, Macrihanish Dunes, Ballyneal?  If you nominate one of those, which course would it replace from the list?

Also, Matthew M has written to describe his amazement over Ran's glowing review of The Links at Hope Island.   And it IS hard to believe: "dozen most strategic courses of the last 60 years"?  It's a cart-ball development course!

What I found educating about the course is, here's a standard resort / real-estate based development course.  From appearances, it's your standard, run-of-the-mill Macquarie Links. (Note how that course has "links" in its name -- you think "links" in the Hope Island name is standard marketing b.s.)

If this course can incorporate links strategy, in a tropical, lake infested, cart flyover environment, then any course can -- and blessed with better terrain could use links strategy to make something special.  (Should probably just call this the "Doak Strategy" and end the thread.)

Links at Hope Island is a symbol, and as such I say it's very much worthy of inclusion in Ran's vaunted list of courses that are fun to play and worthy of study.  Now, whether it's #341 or #567 on Ran's personal rankings of world's greatest, that's a different question altogether...

Hopefully Matthew will chime in with an entertaining broadside.

Mark

[J_ Crisham]

This is one of those threads which needs to meet the "Mucci standard" in order to be intelligibly discussed.

But based on "what I've heard" I'd figure:

1. Sand Hills
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Rustic Canyon
4. Ballyneal
5. Barnbougle Dunes
6. Friar's Head
7. Kiawah Island Ocen
8. Kingsley Club
9. Black Mesa
10.TPC Sawgrass
11.Tobacco Road
12.(Tie) Vict. Nat. and Links at Hobe Sound?

13. Fernandina Beach Muni

Michael,    Placing Fernandina Beach so low is disappointing-the reno work has brought it into a "league of it's own". Not as heralded as it's neighbor down in Ponte Vedra but it has held the best players in check for years- just ask TEP.                       Jack

[PThomas]

This is one of those threads which needs to meet the "Mucci standard" in order to be intelligibly discussed.

But based on "what I've heard" I'd figure:

1. Sand Hills
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Rustic Canyon
4. Ballyneal
5. Barnbougle Dunes
6. Friar's Head
7. Kiawah Island Ocen
8. Kingsley Club
9. Black Mesa
10.TPC Sawgrass
11.Tobacco Road
12.(Tie) Vict. Nat. and Links at Hobe Sound?

13. Fernandina Beach Muni

pls note which course is the unlucky #13  

sorry TP, I couldn't resist!

with affection from the guy who's initials are in the right order,

 PT

[Mike Wagner]

Every Bandon course.....and it looks like Old Mac will present the most strategic options of them all.

[BCrosby]

Cuscowilla - - wide fairways set up with huge risk/reward opportunities, driveable or near driveable par 4's, two Cape holes, widely varied greens calling for all kinds of approach shots (many with multiple choices for any given shot to many cup locations).

What David Madison said.