[Gary Slatter]

Interesting piece in Robert Thompson's blog about an article in the GLOBE AND MAIL with Troon golf quote that 5 or 6 architects who say they'll do it for nothing.  

www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/

[Dan Herrmann]

I think Pete Dye does a pro bono course occasionally.  I don't think he took any money for his work with Tim Liddy and Dr. Bradley Klein at Wintonburry Hills (CT).

[wsmorrison]

Tom Paul works for nothing.  Of course he really isn't an architect, more of a concept guy and historian.  The market place set his compensation rate, though it is still a little too high  

[Joel_Stewart]

First, I clicked on the article above and received a pop up spam invitation for a drive cleaner so beware.

I think a number or architects work for free, Rees Jones did Bethpage and Montock for free and Fazio is starting to do more for free.  I know he did Champions without charge and I had heard he has done several others big name Open tracks for free in order that Rees (the Open doctor) doesn't get the jobs.  Nicklaus did OSU and I'm sure there are others.

Even the architect may wave their fee, a few have their own in house construction companies who I doubt wave their fee?  In the end the architect makes some money and they keep their crews working.

[PThomas]

i think Jack did that Florida muni recently for $1

[Ian Andrew]

I'll build a children's course for nothing, because there is a bigger picture involved that I believe in.

I need a project more than most architects - having no solo project to showcase to get work - but I'll never work for free. I have a family to support and the time commitment is huge.

[TEPaul]

Wayne, I've decided I'd rather be an "amateur" architect such as in the old school. They refused money and so do I. But if some client wants to give me Heidi Klum or some fair facsimile of her for a couple of days I'd have to rethink my lack of compensation habits.

[Phil_the_Author]

So Tom, does this mean you've discovered some stand of scrub pines inhabiting a sand-filled rolling 150-200 acres or so?

Please let it be so and may "shot-testing" begin soon!  

[Tom_Doak]

Everyone is entitled to make their own decision on matters like these, but I don't understand why an architect would want to work for free, if his client is going to make that much more money off the deal as a result of his generosity.

[TEPaul]

No sir, Philip, it does not mean that. But I have hit on a location in Maryland to design perhaps the world's best 279sf ladies tee.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom's right - it's not like pro bono legal or medical work where a less fortunate person is benefitting.  Some owner is going to make money off the design - whether a person, corporation, or governmental entity.

[John Kavanaugh]

Everyone is entitled to make their own decision on matters like these, but I don't understand why an architect would want to work for free, if his client is going to make that much more money off the deal as a result of his generosity.

I do the paving work for a small town just north of here and saw a plan they had for building a par three course that the local pro had drawn up.  It was horrible so I called Ken Kavanaugh and asked him if he would donate his services so the town could have a nice place for beginners, children and now most residents to play.  He agreed to design the course for free for the good of the game and because he knew it would make other people who love the game happy.  I don't know why anyone else wouldn't do the same.  

[Mike_Young]

Wayne, I've decided I'd rather be an "amateur" architect such as in the old school. They refused money and so do I. But if some client wants to give me Heidi Klum or some fair facsimile of her for a couple of days I'd have to rethink my lack of compensation habits.

Can she be inflatable?

[Gary Slatter]

sorry, the basis of the article was a Troon executive saying that there are so many architects that many are asking to do a course for free.  I don't think it was about doing a charity course..

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

No doubt there will be the maximum amount of Behrian influence possible in that 279 sf ladies tee in Maryland.  You'll have those ladies scratching their heads whether to stand on the right side of the tee or the left, a mere ten feet away.

Anyway, forget Heidi Klume; your compensation should be the modern version of the most beautiful woman that ever lived, Grace Kelly.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Joel,
How do you know Fazio did Champions Jack Rabbit without charge?
I'll disagree - although it was a good deal for the organizations involved.

John,
I don't think Tom was including that type of service - that isn't a very profitable enterprise.
And good for you and your brother.

This doesn't pertain to either Kavanaugh, but to the original question:

There is a big difference in designing a course for a few hundred hours, vs. a few thousand hours.

[John Kavanaugh]

There is very little difference between doing something or doing nothing.  I thought every occupation that sells intellectual property gave a minimal percentage away.  I'm shocked that any architect with food in his belly wouldn't give advice at a course like Troon for free.  I see a ton of upside.

[Ian Andrew]

Your brother did the right thing for a group that would not benefit financially. I said I would do a children's course for the same reason.

The amount of time to do a new course would be a financial bath for a small firm - there may be courses in the future because of it - but if your not careful you may never see the the benefit if you can't pay your bills.

There is a huge difference between supplying a routing plan and designing and supervising a course.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'll echo Ian's remark:

There is a huge difference between a routing plan and designing and supervising a course.

There is also a huge difference between a routing sketch and a routing plan.


Robert you might want to know I had the same experience as Joel.
The first time to the article was without event, the second I was told I had too much porn on my computer....

[John Kavanaugh]

The municipality where my brothers course was built charges greenfees to where it is beyond self supporting.  The additional monies generated now goes to improve other areas of the park.  I would guess given the materials he generated and time spent at a site 1500 miles from his office came in around 100 hours of work.  If you want to pooh pooh full size color drawings and a site visit then so be it.  Sorry for mentioning something of such little value.

[Mike_Young]

I once saw a very good supt sell himself to a client by telling the client that it was the annual budget that mattered and he could give him the results for less budget including is higher salary than the lesser salaried supt....AND e was right....
Same goes for most things....nothing is free....paying an architect to oversee the project will most likely save the owner more than someone giving him a free set of plans and coming by every few weeks to view the project.....
Also have seen people give away the design if they got to oversee the construction....I have done this myself but I made it clear to the client that I was maing my money in construction management....JMO

[John Kavanaugh]

If Fazio quit as consultant to ANGC how many architects would offer to give 200 hours of on site work a year for free?  When did money take over as the driving force of this proffesion?

[George Pazin]

The municipality where my brothers course was built charges greenfees to where it is beyond self supporting.  The additional monies generated now goes to improve other areas of the park.  I would guess given the materials he generated and time spent at a site 1500 miles from his office came in around 100 hours of work.  If you want to pooh pooh full size color drawings and a site visit then so be it.  Sorry for mentioning something of such little value.

I don't read them as pooh poohing your brother's generous work, simply as differentiating it from some of the practices of other architects.

No one works for free, they just work for different reasons.

If I had a few thousand acres in the Sand Hills, I'd be letting each architect on board have at least a 9, maybe even an 18. And I'd pay 'em, too (hey, if you're gonna dream....).

Of course, I'd save a little corner for myself as well.

 

[George Pazin]

If Fazio quit as consultant to ANGC how many architects would offer to give 200 hours of on site work a year for free?  When did money take over as the driving force of this proffesion?

Some would argue the PR and marketing benefit he receives more than justifies a few hundred hours of "free" work.

Money is at least A, if not THE, driving force of pretty much every profession on earth. The days of the George Thomas dabbler are long gone.

[Tom_Doak]

George Thomas was already quite wealthy, so that doesn't really apply.  I suppose Jack Nicklaus is wealthy by the same standard, but most golf course architects are not.

John K:  Kudos to your brother for volunteering his time and skill to such a project.  I don't see how that conflicts with my earlier statement that no one should do it if the client will just make more as a result.  Guess I should have added the caveat that is okay as long as it's a cause you support.  Most golf courses nowadays are for-profit enterprises and architects should not be suckers in working for the publicity value.  

Augusta National makes millions of dollars every year off The Masters and (after making renovations to the golf course and subsidizing the wine cellar) donates the excess to charity.  I suppose most golf architects would be more than willing to do their work for free, but personally, I would charge them full price and then choose where to donate their money.

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