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Rich Goodale

Harbour Town, with or without trees....
« on: June 23, 2007, 01:04:51 PM »
When we had a thread a few months ago about influential modern architects, we seemed to settle on Pete Dye in general and Harbour Town in specific as the seminal person and work of the post-WWII years.  And then silence.

In fact, not only silence but revisionism--there had been a putative review advertised on this site by Ran on Harbourtown as long as two years ago, but it was never posted and after that thread seemed to have been disappeared......

Why?

As for my experience, I played Harbour Town 5 or so times in the late 70's/early 80's and compared it then very farorably with Pebble Beach, which I also played fairly regularly at that time.

Why?

Well.....on both courses, every single shot you hit, from the tee, the fairway, the rough, the bunkers, the fringes or on the greens requires both raw skill and controlling one's fragile imagination.  Both opening holes are seemingly pedestrian, but potentially lethal.  Both 2nds are short "par"-5's,  but HT's requries much more imagination than PB's.  PB finishes better (HT's 16-18 are poor imitations of Pebble), but in the middle of the course, Harbour Town really shines.  It has far less eye-candy than Pebble, but far more interesting and challenging golf shots.  The holes flow naturally in a golfing sense, whereas at Pebble you often feel that the routing was chosen for reasons of golfer views rather than golfer strategies.

Of course, I could be wrong....... :)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harbour Town, with or without trees....
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2007, 01:45:41 PM »
Rihc- Are you saying it isn't the trees that make H-Town great?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re:Harbour Town, with or without trees....
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2007, 01:48:16 PM »
What trees, Adam?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harbour Town, with or without trees....
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2007, 02:08:27 PM »
From the other thread David M. wrote
Quote
You'd kill the course. Harbour Town is totally a three dimensional course. The trees require you to carve the ball at varying heights in ways that no amount of rough, sand, water, or wind could ever require. There's too many bunkers and other obstacles in the fronts of greens and the ground is soft there, so you'd never be able to change the nature of the place to require low, running, ground-game shots.

And then Brent threw in some sort of confirmation by saying that people (pros) actually enjoy it.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re:Harbour Town, with or without trees....
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2007, 02:13:01 PM »
Adam

Both courses have trees and lots of them.  I'm trying to elevate (sic) the discussion beyond arboreal matters and to the heart of architecture.  Maybe in vain...... :'(

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Harbour Town, with or without trees....
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2007, 03:50:46 PM »
As I was futile im my attempt to illustrate the fact that you were trying to elevate the discussion by interjecting some humor. (Considering statements made on the other thread)

Maybe this will help en masse.  What made HT so seminal?
(Surely not the trees)

Perhaps it's not about the course specific, but is seminal because it got Pete in the limelight, where he could then go own to build many many more?







"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Rich Goodale

Re:Harbour Town, with or without trees....
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2007, 04:02:15 PM »
Seminal, in the sense that it was the first high-profile non-RTJ course that got traction in the 60s/early 70s.  Also, it (Dye) spawned Doak, Coore, etc.  Also, it was probably the first "zero degrees of separation" auld country tribute course since NGLA.  Plus, of course, it is one helluva golf course qua golf course.  And, of course, Arnie winning there didn't hurt....

Just a few thoughts

Rich

TEPaul

Re:Harbour Town, with or without trees....
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 11:23:35 AM »
Richard the Abstruse:

I guess I'm still trying to figure out what you're trying to say and what point you're trying to make about Dye's architecture. Are you trying to suggest he doesn't get the credit on this website you think he should? Or are you trying to have a discussion about some of the things that perhaps made his architecture and his style unique in its time that haven't been enough discussed on here?

By the way, a number of Dye's courses particularly in the mid-Atlantic and north Florida REALLY use trees in strategies perhaps more than any golf architect ever. Have you ever played his Amelia Island courses? Half the holes or more are centered around tree placement to create strategic ramifications.

Also when you say Pete was the first of the modern era to bring back over here concepts from UK golf most of the things he brought back over here were things from rudimentary man-made golf architecture over there way back. He was just fascinated by that really old fashioned rudimentary man-made stuff over there. What do you think his prevalent railroad tie style was all about?  ;)

Pete also just loved operating machinery like bulldozers.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 11:31:54 AM by TEPaul »