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Bill Shamleffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« on: June 12, 2007, 01:20:39 PM »
Normally sane Peter Kostis declared temporary insane after this bit on Golf.com:

"My 2 cents
I am all for growing the game, and I understand that moving the U.S. Open — our country's national championship — from region to region helps do that. But if I ran the USGA, I'd develop a golf complex that would be the permanent home for ALL USGA national championships. Why not build a complex that had a course for the men's U.S. Open, a second course for the women's U.S. Open, a third for the U.S. Senior Open and a fourth for junior, amateur and other events?

Not only would this end the yearly griping about how the courses are set up, but the USGA would also earn a lot of revenue from people who'd come to play those courses. The USGA could then design courses from the beginning to fairly test the best players in the world, and it could stop modifying great courses with ridiculous fairway cuts and par 5s converted into par 4s."

http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,1630269-1,00.html
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2007, 01:30:18 PM »
Oh no he didn't...

He did?

The only correct point in that piece is that the USGA would earn a lot of money.

Everything else is so far beyond wrong that it makes me somewhat sad.

Konica-Minolta SwingVision, now in color, presented by BizHub, will show us that Kostis shanked this one.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2007, 01:57:01 PM »
The USGA could then design courses from the beginning to fairly test the best players in the world, and it could stop modifying great courses with ridiculous fairway cuts and par 5s converted into par 4s."

Well, I do see some potential benefit in that....

Look at all the kvetching on here about how great courses have been permanently messed up by US Open setups.

OTOH, this is more or less what ANGC has done, and it's influences are equally questioned.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

TEPaul

Re:Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2007, 02:40:45 PM »
This was an idea that was floated in the late 1920s by architect William Flynn. You can read all about it in one of his article in the USGA Green Section Bulletin in the late 20s.

Interestingly, he offered one of Kostis' points---eg the USGA could then experiment with the architecture of the course and not get into doing it with private members' courses.

I suppose one of the implied messages was that Flynn would design and built this USGA course or courses.  ;)

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2007, 02:44:19 PM »
From The thread "If They Did Build..."


  Re:but if they DID build a golf course for the U.S. Open...
« Reply #2 on: Today at 02:41:01pm »      

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Course that the USGA would build...

*7,400 yard par 70 with just two par 3's/no par 5's.
*O.B. left and right of 22 yard wide fairways.
*Greens at 14 on stimp with severe back to front upside down salad bowl greens.
*5 inch rough surrounding the greens at the lips of the salad bowls.
*Less than 40 minutes from major NY/PHILA metro areas with fine dining establishments such as the Russian Tea Room (Valet parking for Lexus Owners Only/Please remember to use the AMEX).
*Champions dinners with Lee Janzen, Scott Simpson, David Graham, Andy North, Steve Jones & Larry Nelson; MC'ed by Mr. 63.

The typical USGA Open Set-Up produces (Favors?) one type of player.

Let the beat downs begin!!!

JWK
 

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2007, 11:37:29 PM »


 the USGA could then experiment with the architecture of the course and not get into doing it with private members' courses.

 

From that perspective, I'm all for it. No more defacing of the games great courses. I was going to go the other way and say he was nuts, but I think we are past the point where the good of game would benefit from different areas of the country seeing Mad Golf, beyond Thunderdome. The game would benefit more from the these insane set ups being confined to one place and not the WF's, the Oakmonts and Shinnecock's of the world.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2009, 09:05:30 PM »
bump

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2009, 09:11:43 PM »
How much different would this place be than TPC Sawgrass? Am I incorrect or was that more or less the idea of the PGA tour commissioner proposed with mr. dye

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2009, 09:12:28 PM »
At least we wouldn't see some great courses demolished by the Open...

on the other side, having the Open forever on a Rees Jones course doesn't sound well to me

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2009, 09:43:30 PM »
What an absurd idea - next thing we know, some notable golfer will grab the preeminent architect of the day and build a "top notch" course to host one of the four majors every year for the next 80-odd years.

Okay so I am not really trying to defend Kostis, but it's not like something in this vein hasn't happened before with some amount of success.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2009, 09:53:59 PM »
This is another stupid idea that should die a quick death so that it won't be kicking around for another 80 years. There is some merit to creating golf courses for USGA events IF the sites were located across the US, but a permanent home would ruin the popularity of the event. It is America's Open, not just the Masters, and it needs to travel. The Brits figured that out long ago, and as much as it pains me to say it, they got that part right.  

Tennis moved its Open around (a few years at a site)  before it settled in Flushing Meadows, ca. 1978, and I think that game would be a lot more popular if it moved around once again.
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2009, 10:06:08 PM »
Did he say where this golf course should be located, the affect of the weather and how it would hold up to repeated use ?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2009, 10:06:17 PM »
I question the logic that the USGA having a permanent home would stop clubs from making awkward modifications in order to keep their courses on the cutting edge.  There are lots of non-championship courses making such changes every year.

But, this will never happen, because the elite clubs are more interested in bringing the Open back to their courses than they are in supporting a USGA golf mecca.

TEPaul

Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2009, 10:11:02 PM »
"Tennis moved its Open around (a few years at a site)  before it settled in Flushing Meadows, ca. 1978, and I think that game would be a lot more popular if it moved around once again."

What sites were those for a few years, Jim Kennedy? I remember the US tennis Open being at Forest Hills every year before it moved to its present location.

Believe it or not one of the original ideas of C.B. Macdonald was that NGLA (before it was built) would be the home of the USGA's national championship or even all of them. The USGA apparently nixxed that idea before Macdonald could run any further with it!

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2009, 10:55:26 PM »
"Tennis moved its Open around (a few years at a site)  before it settled in Flushing Meadows, ca. 1978, and I think that game would be a lot more popular if it moved around once again."

What sites were those for a few years, Jim Kennedy? I remember the US tennis Open being at Forest Hills every year before it moved to its present location.

 

Newport, Tom. And I beleive it had a short stint in Philly in the '20's.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 11:01:14 PM »
It would far surpase any or the other brain farts by the USGA. Can you imagine the piece of crap Rees would design for them for say 40,000,000.00?

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2009, 11:05:41 PM »
It would far surpase any or the other brain farts by the USGA. Can you imagine the piece of crap Rees would design for them for say 40,000,000.00?

True, Tiger, but it beats the hell out of Rees doing any more damage to the greats. It would be like letting your child play in the play areas at Macdonalds. They can't do much harm in those.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2009, 11:10:59 PM »
"Newport, Tom. And I beleive it had a short stint in Philly in the '20's."


The point is tennis never moved its US Open around annually as golf's US Open has always done.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2009, 11:43:51 PM »
The only aspect of this plan that is appealing is the idea that the USGA would no longer have to modify great courses so that they can host the US Open.  Indeed, many courses modified themselves by choice to get a better chance at hosting an Open, but the changes have still been caused indirectly by the USGA.

However, I agree consolidating the USGA championships into one major venue would NOT eliminate the trend of course modification.  If anything, it would create a new "Augusta syndrome." Course owners and memberships would be convinced that their courses needed to be up to standard with the USGA championship facility.  Since the facility would be owned by the USGA, this would provide an official standard for championship golf that would be more persuasive than the unofficial Augusta standard that exists now.  Furthermore, courses would likely make even more radical changes considering that there would be fewer prestigious for which they could compete to host.

Major championships and rankings are likely the two biggest causes of major golf course renovations.  However, you would have to eliminate the majors altogether to keep courses from making changes because of them.  Overall, this plan proves once again that Peter Kostis does not understand the game of golf.


"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2009, 01:47:48 AM »
I question the logic that the USGA having a permanent home would stop clubs from making awkward modifications in order to keep their courses on the cutting edge.  There are lots of non-championship courses making such changes every year.

But, this will never happen, because the elite clubs are more interested in bringing the Open back to their courses than they are in supporting a USGA golf mecca.

I am with Tom here.  There is much more going on with the changing of courses and blaming the USGA for it.  I believe that many club memberships have egos as large as Trump's and will do nearly anything to remain in the limelight of golf.  That is the way it has always been and I don't see it ending with permanent homes for championships.  Who knows, you could see clubs trying to start up invitational tournies like the Masters.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2009, 06:33:37 AM »
JNC_Lyon,

The USGA doesn't modify golf courses.

The hosting club is to blame for any modifications.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2009, 08:45:37 AM »
Puttting the financial angle to the forefront of these things always nets dubious decision making.  Just look at the quality of courses selected for the Ryder Cup....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Martin Toal

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2009, 08:51:55 AM »
Maybe they could build the greens on tracks, so that they can be moved back if, for example, a player hit a par-5 in two. Following day, green is 20 yards further back and the space filled in with a new water hazard. Likewise the trees could be moved in and out to narrow the fairways.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2009, 09:35:27 AM »
TEPaul,
They never moved around (3 or 4 venues in 100 years) like golf's US Open, but the 'point' is that tennis doesn't connect with a lot of people and I think a goodly part of that is due to the fact that they don't take their show on the road.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Permanent home for ALL USGA national championships
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2009, 09:38:04 AM »
that and the fact that every tennis courst has exactly the same dimesions....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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