[Rich Goodale]

Is anybody familiar with this Langford/Moreau course/club?  I'm writing an article on Archie Simpson, who was the pro there in the 20's and 30's, and am wondering if he had anything to do with the architecture.

Thanks in advance.

Rich

[David Stamm]

I don't know a thing about it Richard, but Whitten and Cornish credit Langford and Moreau (no mention of Simpson) for the design. Under Simpson's bio, there is not any mention of his name and the club. I know this probably doesn't really mean anything unless you can see the club docs.

[Rich Goodale]

David

I didn't know that Archie had a bio in C&C (surely not in my copy) or anywhere.  Are you sure you're not confusing him with Tom Simpson?

Rich

[David Stamm]

The name I'm seeing is Archibald Simpson. The bio is very, very short. I'm looking in my copy of The Golf Course.

[Rich Goodale]

Apologies, David.  A lot of GCA anaoraks have mistaken Archie's work at Cruden Bay (for example) for Tom's and vice versa.  Hopefully a less short bio will be available in a month or so.

Mark

Don't worry, this seriousness will not last.  It never does.....

[Dan Moore]

In my limited research on Langford and Moreau I have not come across anything on Clovernook, yet.  

I believe Langford colloborated to some extent with local Chicago Club Pro David McIntosh.  McIntosh was the pro at Westward Ho where Langford learned to play golf and at Glen Oak Langford's home club in the early teens.  I know of at least two clubs in the Midwest where McIntosh did some design work followed by additions or remodeling by Langford.  

[Brian_Ewen]

What edition of "The Golf Course" has a bio. of Archie Simpson ?

I only have a Classics of Golf edition , and he is barely mentioned , which has always been a disappointment to me , considering his name seems to be attached somehow to many of the courses I play regularly .

Rich , I for one look forward eagerly to your article .

A shot of the man teeing off in 1906 at Stonehaven , in a match against James Braid

[Rich Goodale]

Brian

Many thanks for the post and that picture!  What a golf stud was Oor Archie!  Now I can see how his technique was transferred through Stewart Maiden to Bobby Jones, and how he wiped out most of the great golfers of his time (1880-1900).

I know that Stonehaven was one of his designs.  Can you help me at all in learning what he did there and when?  I'll be up in your neck of the woods next week or the week after, and would love to finally meet with you and have a blether, or a drink, or even a game.

All the best

Rich

[Doug Ralston]

Dan Moore

Here is some info: http://www.clovernookcc.com/fw/main/Tour_the_Holes-208.html

I walked by the outside of the course, and looked a bit over the fence. I could see a fair amount. The hole that followed the fence appears to be about a 400yd par-4. It fades a bit and then approaches the green on rather flat terrain. It gets interesting, in that there is a bunker in the middle of the fairway abot 40yd out. From where you hit your approach, it would look like it fronts the green. You could actually hit short and run the ball up. The green is very receptive to that, as it begins right at fair level, there rises slowlt with 'wings' on both sides, descibed around with mounding. Pretty hole.

The other two greens I could see were very smooth, and had more general curvature than hills. Both we set very near the fence that describes the outter boundary of the course.

Within the boundary, there was only light rough under any of those beautiful old trees, so you could certainly play under there. The entire course had a very smooth, moulded quality, without any appearance of earth moving at all.

This course has a grand old feel, I think. Must be a relaxxing place for the members.

Just my impressions from looking in. Langford and Moreau looked minimalistic here, though.

Doug

[Jim Sweeney]

Doug:

You can get a closer look at the course in two weeks as it is the site of the GCGA Met Championship Match Play. I hope and expect to qualify. If you come to watch please find me and introduce yourself.

RFG:

Clovernook is on a very small piece of ground; my guess is not much more than 100 acres. The property is rectangular, with the short side along main road of the Village of North College Hill on Cincinnati's northwest corner. The clubhouse is in the center of the property. There is no practice range; there is a chipping and bunker play practice area.

The property is divided roughly into thirds by two ravines that run across the proprty on the short dimension. One of the ravines contains a lake, the other a creek. The water features cross the line of play on numerous holes but are not in play for low handicappers.

As one would expect on such a tight property several stretches of holes double back on one another. However, this is not necessarily a flaw, because whoever did design the course found some of the best green sites in Cincinnati. One will find elevated, punchbowled, and benched green sites, The greens themselves exhibit bold countours for such small surfaces. In a tournament last year I had a putt on the thirteenth the path of which resembled a question mark.

As Doug indicates the course uses every available inch of the property, running along the fences as well as into the corners from various angles. The bunkering is not intimidating. There is ample room for the tee shot. Due to the size and contouring of the greens, placement of the second shot is critical. An expert golfer can score near par with relative ease, but going "deep" is an oddity.

Interesting features of the course include two long and difficult par threes (4 & 14), back to back par fives (16 & 17), and a driveable par four (18).

The greens of holes 7 and 11 were rebuilt several years ago due to maintainance problems. Unfortunatly I cannot speak to how the course in general compares to its original form, though I am certain the routing and most of the green sites are unchanged.

Though short at about 6600 yards, Clovernook exudes old style charm and requires precision shotmaking, and will serve as an admirable test for the Cincinnati Championship.

[Glenn Spencer]

Jim,

Nice call on 14. That is a really good hole. I can't place 15, but I do remember liking the finish quite a bit. I believe some US Open sectional qualifying was held here until about the  90's. Sound familiar? I want to say that Casey Martin came through here in the first tournament that he was allowed to use a cart. Was that 98? Good luck in the Met!!!

[Steve Kline]

I don't think Casey would have played Open qualifying there. Ever since I played in the Open qualifier in the early 90s it has been at Maketewah (and what is now The Ridge Club when it was 36 holes in one day, which it was when I played with Steve Flesch when he qualified for his first US Open).

Clovernook has also hosted US Mid Am qualifying, which was one of the few times I played. Like many Cincinnati courses it looks really easy on the card but it is hard to go really low on it. The par 3 4th is a brutal hole. Very difficult and unusual par 3. Typically the first plays as a par 4 instead of a par 5 in city events. Last I played there it was a 4-wood off the tee (due to a ravine) and a three iron to the green.

I would not qualify the course as anything that special. It seems like most other Cincinnati private clubs to me.

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't think Casey would have played Open qualifying there. Ever since I played in the Open qualifier in the early 90s it has been at Maketewah (and what is now The Ridge Club when it was 36 holes in one day, which it was when I played with Steve Flesch when he qualified for his first US Open).

Clovernook has also hosted US Mid Am qualifying, which was one of the few times I played. Like many Cincinnati courses it looks really easy on the card but it is hard to go really low on it. The par 3 4th is a brutal hole. Very difficult and unusual par 3. Typically the first plays as a par 4 instead of a par 5 in city events. Last I played there it was a 4-wood off the tee (due to a ravine) and a three iron to the green.

I would not qualify the course as anything that special. It seems like most other Cincinnati private clubs to me.

Steve,

I wrote SECTIONAL qualifying.


The Open will be played June 18-21 at the Olympic Club in San Francisco.

Martin, who suffers from a degenerative leg condition that makes walking painful, has filed an entry form to compete in the Open and is exempt from local qualifying by virtue of his Nike Tour victory earlier this year.

He has elected to compete in 36-hole sectional qualifying on June 8 at Clovernook Country Club in Cincinnati

[Rich Goodale]

Doug, Jim, Steve and Glen

Thanks for the info.  Clovernook sounds interesting and fun--a club where one would be very pleased to be a member.

I have spoken to Bob Harrison, Clovernook's pro, and he tells me that Archie's son, Archie Jr., was the one who arrived as the first pro in 1924.  He stayed there for the rest of his life, which was tragically short, dying in 1932.  Archie Sr. took over the post on his son's death for two years, leaving in 1934 at age 68.  No information so far as to what either of them did or did not do architecturally.

As to what Archie Sr. did in the years between 1922 (when he arrived in the US) and 1932 is also still a mystery.  I think he was the pro at Vincennes, IN from 1922-1926 but my source on all things Southern Indiana/Illiinois (Barney) is incommunicado.  Bob H. thinks he might have been the pro for a while at Maketewah.  I dream that he might have gone over to help out Seth Raynor at Camargo in 1925.  He was apparently engaged at one of the Tam O'Shanter clubs (Niles, IL?) for a while, being the resident pro at the same time as Tommy Armour was the touring pro.

If he helped out at Clovernook (or any of those other courses), they would have benefitted greatly, as he was a giant of GCA in Scotland in the 1890-1910 period.

As most if not all of the four of you seem to be serious players, you might be interested in a little bit of trivia.  Archie played in his first (British) Open in 1885, at age 19, finishing 2nd.  He played in 19 other Opens and never finished lower than 20th.  My guess is that there are few if any players, of any era, who could match that record.

Rich

PS--Good luck, Jim.

R

[Jim Sweeney]

Glenn and Steve:

Casey Martin did indeed play the US Open Sectional qualifier at Clovernook. I was there. It was right after the court injunction against the PGA Tour denying him a cart, but before the actual trial. The USGA was not bound by the court's decision, but went along with it voluntarily. A one-person cart was brought in at the USGA's expense, but it proved unsatisfactory, and after one or two holes Casey was issued a standard golf car.

Clovernook was a regular site for sectional qualifying for many years. Gary Player qualified there one year, and said it was the most nerve wracking golf he had ever played, due to the consequences potentially not getting through.

Until four years ago the sectional bounced between Cincinnati and Columbus depending upon the dates of the Memorial Tournament. Since then the Memorial has been granted a fixed date and so the sectional is permanently in Columbus.

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