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Michael Whitaker

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Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« on: June 08, 2007, 08:59:51 AM »
Why do most of the UK courses I have seen not offer multiple tees to accommodate different skill levels of golfers? Do they not worry that players will feel underchallenged or overchallenged, become bored or frustrated with the game... or, give it up entirely?

The modern courses in the UK have multiple tees... yes?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tom Birkert

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Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2007, 09:20:19 AM »
I can only really comment on courses I know, but differing sets of tees are pretty common from my experience. Of course, the reluctance of players to play from tees suitable to their ability is a worldwide disease!

While most UK courses don’t have 5 or 6 differing sets of tees, a lot have 3 or 4. My course has four (red, yellow, white, blue) and there is sufficient difference between the varying sets to make the course easier or harder as required. Personally I will always play off the blues unless playing with someone who isn’t of the necessary standard. Visitors are only allowed to play from the yellow tees.

What I do think is more common is to have the different tees on the same, long piece of ground, rather than have them individually set at unique little plots of land.

When I travel I like to play from the tips to challenge myself and see how I can do. This can either result in very good rounds (PGA West Stadium) or bad rounds (Riviera).

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2007, 10:42:33 AM »
Michael a few years ago a  number of clubs had planned to introduce some much longer Tees but the local peaceniks objected holding up plackards saying "Thank you so much, but we have quite enough American Runways already". ;)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 10:42:56 AM by Tony Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jon Wiggett

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Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2007, 10:49:43 AM »
Micheal,

if you don't find a course interesting from one set of tees you probably won't find it anymore interesting 20 yards futher forward or back unless the only challenge the course has to offer is distance.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2007, 11:03:41 AM »
If you can't shoot even par from the fronts why play the backs?

Bob

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2007, 11:06:38 AM »
Please lighten up on my friend Michael Whitaker.  He just asked an innocent question!

Most courses I've played in the UK have three sets - yellow is usually visitor, white medal, red forward or ladies tees.

redanman

Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2007, 11:11:34 AM »
UK golf is about getting the ball  into the hole, not hitting big shots.  I find that most puffed up egos can't score from the red tees at most UK courses so what's the beef?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2007, 11:15:42 AM »
Two words:  match play.

The playing field is leveled by handicap, not by tee markers.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2007, 11:31:18 AM »
If you can't shoot even par from the fronts why play the backs?

Bob

I really disagree with this way of thinking.  In lawyers' parlance, it proves too much.  As a 8-9 handicap, I may have trouble shooting par from even the most forward tees.  Does that mean I should never move back, even if every hole becomes driver, flip wedge.  I think not.  Of course, that doesn't justify marching back to the tips when you don't have the game for it, especially if it holds people up.  

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2007, 11:40:22 AM »
Michael Whitaker writes:
Why do most of the UK courses I have seen not offer multiple tees to accommodate different skill levels of golfers? Do they not worry that players will feel underchallenged or overchallenged, become bored or frustrated with the game... or, give it up entirely?

If par is completely meaningless, will you really need different sets of tees? Are different sets of tees there to give a proper challenge, or are they there to stroke egos?

Assuming the course isn't exceptionally short or exceptionally long, the only reason why you would need a large number of tees would be for those who put heavy emphasis on par. In many of the older clubs of the British Isles, par is far less important than it is hear across the pond. They think of par as an American invention, and have fought its import. They find plenty of challenge playing the course daily without considering the par. Especially with the weather often found along the coast, par is even more meaningless to them.

But there attitude does seem to be changing slowly. I'm sure eventually you will see 5-10 tees on each hole at the ancient links courses. Too bad.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
I saw a course you'd really like Trent. On the first tee you take a penalty drop.
 --Jimmy Demaret (to Robert Trent Jones Sr.)

Peter Pallotta

Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2007, 11:43:58 AM »
Michael
just a guess, but I think "the wind" might have something to do with it, especially at the old classic links courses.

From what I read here, a course can play so differently from day to day (and from hole to hole, on the same day), that the challenge that even one set of tees provide is so variable that you don't need any other set....over time, you'll be hitting every club in the bag whether you like it or not.

Peter

 


Jon Earl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2007, 11:51:37 AM »
How many of the older American courses had 4 or more sets of tees at their inception? Unlike their US counterparts, most non-championship UK courses have neither the room nor money to build more tees. Even TOC had to build some of the new championship tees on another course!

I would guess this also applies to many modern courses, apart from the high-end clubs, where more than 3 sets of tees would be an exception.

Of course only having 300-400 yards difference (I'm guessing on this number) between the medal and daily tees means that, even if allowed to play off the back, players of limited ability such as myself can get the round done in good time.  :)

PS Doesn't Augusta only have 1 set of tees for member play?
Splosh! One of the finest sights in the world: the other man's ball dropping in the water - preferably so that he can see it but cannot quite reach it and has therefore to leave it there, thus rendering himself so mad that he loses the next hole as well.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2007, 12:07:43 PM »
Michael, excellent question and to think we have your friend Pat Mucci to thank for it!

Although the ever changing course argument holds very true for the links courses along the coast the vast majority of UK courses are in fact inland and less prone to those dramtic shifts in the weather. I look back to a trip my wife and I made in the south of England, playing many of the top line private clubs. Many, like The Addington and St. Enodoc were adamant that visitors would not venture back to the medal tees. Were they fun from the yellows, yes indeed. Would I have been able to play them quickly and competently enough to suit my sponsors from the whites; absolutely. Woking, West Sussex and Royal Ashdown Forest all allowed it. Most of these course were designed in the Golden Age and I think are the type of strategic course you see mapped out in most of the classic architecture books, with different routes planned for the A, B, C and D players. They weren't designed to have every class of golfer hit 7 iron into the green because that was the shot it was  designed for. Instead the tiger rips it over the bunker, the B player gracefully skirts it and the C and D players are reqired to tack their way through the hazards. Courses designed in this manner probably require more thought to get them to work correctly, but prove to be more enjoyable to a wider spectrum of players. The idea of moving back once a month to test yourself in the Monthly Medal must be quite the treat after playing up for the other portion of the month.

I find this arrangement quite analogous to the driving habits in the UK. The fast lane is for overtaking only and once you pass someone you diligetly return to the slower lane. Compare that to American driving habits, four cars abreast, all doing 65, clogging a four lane highway, each driver oblivious to those behind them. Manners and coutesy play a role as well.

"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Bill_Yates

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2007, 12:24:35 PM »
Most players in the UK play against each other not against the course, therefore, it doesn't really matter what tees they both play from.  It's match play vs. stroke play.  
Bill Yates
www.pacemanager.com 
"When you manage the pace of play, you manage the quality of golf."

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2007, 02:41:08 PM »
What's worse is that most of the courses in the last five years have started allowing the visitors to play from the medal tees on regular days.
Just another example of the Ugly Americanization of Scottish golf.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 02:42:15 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2007, 04:12:10 PM »
If tees are not important why did R & A build so many new ones out of bounds at TOC?

Peter Pallotta

Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2007, 04:26:52 PM »
Pete
really good post, thank you -- neat and tidy but comprehensive. I'm going to save it and use it (in whole or in part) for a goodly number of my own future posts.  :)

Peter

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2007, 04:37:35 PM »
I'm suprised by the lack of interewst in this very fundamental topic. It does seem to me that the multiple tee concept was ushered in by Robert Trent Jones Sr. It was certainly a necessity when you consider that his style was to bunker fairways to the sides, creating choke points for the landing areas. So when your choke point is 50 yards past the average golfer's drive you have to give him a 50 yard head start. Of course you then have the disparity of the better player now attacking the green with 3-4 less clubs.

I do like the simple one sided bunkering technique advocated by Tom Simpson. It challanges the better player, while letting the weaker player weave his way around the obstacles. English courses from the early part of the 20th century do that so well. And they are still a joy to play from one set of tees at 6000-6200 yards.

"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

G Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2007, 06:17:13 PM »
PS Doesn't Augusta only have 1 set of tees for member play?

Yes... but since they dig up the course and move the tees every year (it seems), if you played there every year it would be like playing from different sets of tees  ;D

Mark_F

Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2007, 07:14:45 PM »
A lot of the good and great courses in the UK aren't all that long to begin with.  They don't always derive their difficulty from having to hit drives certain distances to carry hazards, but by more subtle means, like heather!

The greens aren't designed to be always approached ideally with a certain iron, but because of the weather and changing seasons, and the fiscal reluctance of the average pom to spend money where it isn't necessary, they aren't about to jack up their subs just to make the course play the same all year.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2007, 07:33:12 PM »
Michael:

I think the bottom line is that they are just trying to get the visitors out of there as quickly as they can.  And who can blame them?

Darren_Kilfara

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Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2007, 09:01:19 PM »
Most players in the UK play against each other not against the course, therefore, it doesn't really matter what tees they both play from.  It's match play vs. stroke play.  

I'm based in the UK, and 80-90% of my golf is played in strokeplay competitions. Furthermore, nobody I know ignores par; this sort of sentiment is for more idealistic than reality, IMHO.

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2007, 09:03:34 PM »
What's worse is that most of the courses in the last five years have started allowing the visitors to play from the medal tees on regular days.
Just another example of the Ugly Americanization of Scottish golf.

I think this is a bit harsh as well. I like now being able to play from the same tees in every round I play - allows me to hit the same shots in practice as I can in a competition. It might be "Ugly Americanization" if these tees were all at 7,000 yards plus and the average visitor really couldn't hack them...but given the choice of tees at 6,400 or 6,100 yards, why not let the visitor (and member alike) play from 6,400?

Darren_Kilfara

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Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2007, 09:09:28 PM »
If you can't shoot even par from the fronts why play the backs?

Bob

I really disagree with this way of thinking.  In lawyers' parlance, it proves too much.  As a 8-9 handicap, I may have trouble shooting par from even the most forward tees.  Does that mean I should never move back, even if every hole becomes driver, flip wedge.  I think not.  Of course, that doesn't justify marching back to the tips when you don't have the game for it, especially if it holds people up.  

The flip side of my previous post is that even from the "box" tees for standard play, I don't know of any course worth playing in the UK where every hole becomes driver, flip wedge. Indeed, on some holes the forward tees become rather more interesting - turning a drive + flip into a driveable hole with strategic interest. And on other holes, the drive + flip concept brings big trouble into play for little reward; you'd be better off playing 2 iron + 9 iron/wedge.

The sum total of my last three posts is to say that I hate to see British golf pigeonholed like it often is on this site (by non-Brits). British golf shares some characteristics with its American cousin and has some distinguishing features, but it's all a matter of degrees, and the world of golf is big enough to let those degrees coexist happily.

Cheers,
Darren

mike_beene

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Re:Lack of multiple tees on UK courses. Why?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2007, 09:37:51 PM »
Darren,the first time I went to Scotland I was amazed that it was no different in conditioning,shots around the green etc than I was used to in the American west.That was in a May but a number of visits at different times hasn't changed this.I love the absence of buggies.I really dont like the short tees(my only complaint)

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