[Matt_Cohn]

Architects or Supers,

What percent slope is considered pinnable if the greens are running at 9? 11? 13?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt,
  When I was helping build Friars Head, the slopes were kept to 3% in the pinning areas. Having not been back since the club opened, the original intent was to not have the greens terribly fast because of the unique contouring. My guess is that speeds in the 10-11 range is safe there.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Brad Klein]

Once you get to speeds of 10.5-11 the ball will not come to a rest on a spot that's above 2.5% slope. So you need about 10 areas of 200 square feet each with less than 2.5% slope for a green to function decently with enough hole locations. You don't actually have to measure out each separate area. But you better have at least half of the green sloping at less than 2.5%, and better than that, at about 2.0%, for the green to function.

No area of golf maintenance is more subject to more public misunderstanding. At speeds of 10+, I guarantee you over 90 percent of all real golfers would be unable to play a complete round following the rules of golf, and in any case the round would take 5+ hours. For the vast majority of golflers, a speed of 9 is plenty, more than they can actually handle. And the standard rule of thumb for smart superintendents is either not to measure at all, or at least to add 1 foot to what you tell people, so that at a mid-range club with greens at 8.5 if you tell people 10 they'll be thrilled.

[Steve Okula]

 And the standard rule of thumb for smart superintendents is either not to measure at all, or at least to add 1 foot to what you tell people, so that at a mid-range club with greens at 8.5 if you tell people 10 they'll be thrilled.

Isn't the difference between 8.5 and 10 a foot and a half?

Brad, I agree with everything you said except that last line there.

All it takes is your green committee chairman wanting to verify one time, and you don't roll what you said you roll, they will never believe you on anything again.

Being a GCS is just like playing golf, you don't cheat. Once you get caught in a lie your credibility is gone forever.

If you want to stay around in this business don't lie about anything, even something as trivial as green speeds.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Brian,
  Mike Morris, superintendent at Crystal Downs and Tom Nikiali of Michigan State came out with a study about greens speeds. They have done many seminars and have presented their findings and opinions. No way in the seminar did they talk about the greens a CD running in the 13 range, in fact that talked about how they have educated their membership about with the contouring of ther greens, that they will be in the 10-10.5 range and that's it.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Greg Tallman]

Listened to Nicklaus talking to the broadcast crew today. They all agreed the greens DID stimp 13-14. They also had stories of faster greens. Nicklaus seemed to like fast flat greens, commenting on the skill to hit a straight putt 'into the back of the cup'.

Doug

Doug,

Hope you have Tivo... that is the exact opposite of what Jack said. He said he did not like flattish greens where you just bang it in the back of the cup.

[Anthony_Nysse]

  All the greens on Nicklaus courses that I have played seemed to have tiers, not necessarily internal contouring. Each green seemed to have 3-4 very fair, very flat pinable areas, broken up by ridges. Does anyone agree?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Doug Ralston]

Greg;

Maybe I misunderstood what he said [wish I did have TIVO]. He certainly seemed to me to be justifying his claimed 13+ with a claim to like flatter greens.

All the others did seem to agree to the 13+ assertion.

Again, I do not know what speeds are really there. I DO know at very high speeds my hands feel like bricks and putting distance goes out of control.

I once saw a descriptive of a course which includes " ..... the greens are humped, woolly, and excruciatingly slow". Thats for me!  

Doug

[Jim Nugent]

No area of golf maintenance is more subject to more public misunderstanding. At speeds of 10+, I guarantee you over 90 percent of all real golfers would be unable to play a complete round following the rules of golf, and in any case the round would take 5+ hours.

Brad, switching gears, but your comment made me think of this -- how do you think bogey golfers would do on ANGC's greens that are in Masters speed and conditions?  How many putts would they likely take?  

[Brian_Sleeman]

Brian,
  Mike Morris, superintendent at Crystal Downs and Tom Nikiali of Michigan State came out with a study about greens speeds. No way in the seminar did they talk about the greens a CD running in the 13 range, in fact that talked about how they have educated their membership about with the contouring of ther greens, that they will be in the 10-10.5 range and that's it.

Yes, I know, I think you misread my post.

My point was that some of the people who play there (usually guests) think the greens are running in the neighborhood of 13 or higher, and I mentioned this to illustrate the misconception most players have about the true speed of greens.

Nicklaus's comments (as reported by Doug) on how he likes fast, flat greens says a lot about his criteria for what makes a good putter.  Merely being able to putt the ball along a chosen line seems to me only half of what makes a great putter, and leaves out the important aspects of using imagination and feel to determine what that line should be to begin with.  Does Nicklaus tend to build flatter greens that correspond with these comments?  

[Andrew Hastie]

I've never been to Muirfield Village or Augusta for that matter but I have played Royal Melbourne and several other Sandbelt courses with as quick greens as anywhere in the world.Royal Melbourne stimp between 10 and 11 for daily play http://www.randa.org/news/files/A%20Classic%20Greenkeeping%20Adventure.pdf.   For tournment play anything more then 12 or 13 is a ridiculous speed especially on undulating greens.I don't believe any greens stimp more then this at anytime.People love to exaggerate green speeds.Imagine putting on greens a meter quicker then RM daily speeds would be beyond frightening.

[Greg Tallman]

 All the greens on Nicklaus courses that I have played seemed to have tiers, not necessarily internal contouring. Each green seemed to have 3-4 very fair, very flat pinable areas, broken up by ridges. Does anyone agree?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Tony, Would you say that the greens at May River are as you describe above?

[Ken Moum]

A couple of years ago I talked for some time with Dave Pelz about the Pelzmeter that his son Eddie invented.

It is said to eliminate some of the inconsistencies of the Stimp--primarily the  bounce of the balls as they exit the ramp, and the tendency for the balls to follow the previous ball's track, and for eachone to go farther. (It has three side-by-side ramps with curved exit to give a cleaner release to the balls.)

It also has a calculator with an algorythim that allows it to be used on greens that don't have flat enough areas to use the Stimp.

The thing is very consistent, and he claimed that it gives comparable readings to the Stimp.

Anyway, we were talking about Bethpage Black for the Open and the fact that the greens there were fairly flat. He said the greens were running at about 11 or 12 early in the week, except for one that Craig Curry was giving special treatment to for some reason.

The thing he said that suprised me was that by Sunday, they were all within a few inches of 16 feet.

Of course that's second-hand information, but I recall that the greens were smoking fast on Sunday at Bethpage.

K

[David_Madison]

Tony Nysse:

I'm at Governors Club in Chapel Hill, NC, a Nicklaus course built in 1990. The greens are much as you say, with sharply cut tiers, but fairly flat within the tier. The toughest greens to make anything on are the ones that are less tiered but more flowing through the entire green, and the toughest cup locations on the tiered greens are right in the middle, where the tiers and ridges blend together and you can't easily figure out anything.

[TEPaul]

Those on here who've said superintendents lie about the stimp speed of greens are right. Many supers report a stimp speed number that's higher than the stimpmeter reading really is and thank GOD ALMIGHTY they do that.

What I'd like to see is a whole lot of supers get their greens to a real 11 for a day and tell the membership the greens are stimping at about 9.5.  

[Doug Siebert]

So what does linoleum stimp at?  I read this thread last week and after I finished up with GCA I grabbed a ball and my putter and went into my kitchen to take a few putts and see how controllable it was.  I didn't think it was really that bad, my main problem was that everything seems to break towards the stove

[Matt_Cohn]

Doug,

Theoretically, linoleum would probably stimp in the low hundreds.

In the house where I grew up, everything in my kitchen broke towards the dishwasher.  

[Bill Warnick]

A pool table stimps 15.

Studies show that players are unable to tell the difference between greens that vary 6".

[Sean_A]

Bill

My god man, what sort of pool tables do you play on?  Aren't snooker tables 12 feet long?  I hope there isn't a table out there bigger than a snooker table because those sleep 5 comfortably.  Thats plenty of table for any man!

Ciao

[Anthony_Nysse]

Greg,
  You are spot on about May River...and their greens were over 13 this winter and like a pool table-absolutley awesome. Chris Johnson is a very agressive, top tiered superintendent-He really makes that place go.

David,
  Thanks for your comments. Just to clear things up, I don't view it as a downfall of Nicklus by any means. I think that it a good way to have fast greens with fair pins and good movement. I think that this is a safe way to build greens to have challenge and speed. Mr. Dye seems to design similar greens styles.

  TEPAul,
  I'm with Steve in the fact that when we report, it's spot on because it only takes one time for the pro or a committee person to check and we've lost credibility. I wouldn't make the generalization in that all supers do exagerate.

  Kmoum,
  I knew someone on the inside ropes of the 2002 US Open and they said by the weekend that the greens were running in the 15 range. I would have said it earlier, but many seem to think that it's not possible. When you're cutting at .065 or .070, it can be done! Thanks

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Eric Morrison]

A few random responses:
Making sweeping generalizations that all superintendents exaggerate stimp readings is ludicrous.
The stimpmeter was invented as a tool to check for green consistency...not speed.
11,12,13,14,15...they all equal fast.
A mid handicapper who played ANGC on Sun. during the Masters wouldn't finish...they would easily have over 40 putts.
.065 cutting height??? insanity.
Unless you have personally stimped a green, and understand how the procedure is supposed to work, and how to use the tool, there is room for misconception...a green that runs at 10 would probably be labelled as 12 or higher by many an average golfer...the tool is not perfect, the procedure is not perfect...use it as a guide, not the rule.
Supers who get fired because the course down the road rolls 2 feet faster are victims of this ridiculousness. Each course is different, grasses are different, micro climates at green complexes are different...making comparisons from course to course have to take all of this and more into account.

[TEPaul]

"When you're cutting at .065 or .070, it can be done!   Thanks

Anthony:

.065 or .070?? I've heard of low but not that low. What do you do when you mow that low, throw the bedknife away after one green?  

[Jim Nugent]

Can anyone tell me what angle to the green the stimpmeter is set at, and also how long the ramp is.  

The stimpmeter was invented as a tool to check for green consistency...not speed.

 The idea being to check various parts of the green, and also check a number of greens, to see if they show the same readings?

How often does it happen that different parts of the same green stimp differently?  How about different greens, on the same day?  If there is a difference, how big might it be?

A mid handicapper who played ANGC on Sun. during the Masters wouldn't finish...they would easily have over 40 putts.

 Why wouldn't they finish?

[tlavin]

The Stimpmeter is purportedly an objective way to measure green speeds, but there are certainly ways to "fudge" the process so you come up with the number that you want to promote.  

[TEPaul]

"Can anyone tell me what angle to the green the stimpmeter is set at, and also how long the ramp is."

Good question.

The stimpmeter is three feet long but I'm not sure how far up the notch that the ball rests in is---maybe two feet. I don't know what the angle is that allows the ball to roll out of the notch but the trick is not to pull the stimpmeter up too fast or you'll get a bad rollout (ie too far). I can't remember what constitutes a bad reading either, but I think it's either over a foot or perhaps two of distance differential either way with three balls (a stimpmeter reading is rolling three balls in opposite directions on a flat surface and taking an average of the three ball two way rollout). Frankly, on some of these older courses with slopy or highly contoured greens with the speeds people are running now it's not that easy to find a place to take a proper stimpmeter reading within the stimpmeter's three ball two way rollout protocol that must have a limited distance differential both ways.

One of the problems with using a stimpmeter at today's speeds is a stimpmeter can only be used on a basically flat area and there isn't all that much problem with playability with high green speeds on flat green areas.

The problems arise when a green gets above 11 and the golf ball hits slopes and contours and basically just builds up a ton of speed and rockets away. If you did a one way stimp reading on some green slopes and contours at today's speeds the ball could go anywhere including 40, 50, 60 or more feet away.

Not just that but you also get a ton of really idiotic golfers who think the ball should go uphill almost as fast as it goes downhill.

Brad Klein is right when he says the first thing he learned is rich people can be real idiots too.  

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