[Mike Hendren]

Yesterday I played Nashville Golf & Athletic Club for the first time in a few years.  This is a fascinating golf course on many fronts.  Chief among them is the fact that the course opened in 1972 and plays at 7440 yards from the back markers.  

Even more amazing is the fact that the back markers are generally kept about 2/3 of the way back of giant runway tees on several holes.  I'm guessing the golf course tipped out at over 7600 yards when designed 35 years ago.  

We played the course at 6340 yards, generally from tees at the extreme front of the runways or tees subsequently constructed in front of the original runways.  

Par generally wins the two man scramble played from the tips annually, I understand.  

What on earth were these guys thinking, and this length typical of their other designs?

Mike

[Russ Miller]

Mike -

I am relatively new to the site and live in Nashville.  I'm assuming that you must live in the Nashville area having played Nashville Golf and Athletic yesterday.  Good to know there are other people in the area interested in this stuff.  Send me a message if you want to get together sometime.

I have never played NGAC, but would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the course.  I have heard some people love it and others don't care for it.  You may know more about this than me, but I had heard that it was originally designed with it in mind to bring a tour event to Nashville--that might partially explain the extreme difficulty.

As far as other work by Devlin and VonHagge, my uncle plays at East Lake Woodlands in the Tampa area.  The North Course there is a Devlin and VonH design from about the same time as NGAC (mid-70's), and it plays pretty short from the tips - 6800 yards, I think.  I don't know about any other work of theirs from the mid-70's.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Von Hagge was not ahead of much but bump design. lol

[Gary Slatter]

Not sure about ahead of the curve but Von Hagge has some fine European courses in Italy and France, Cinnamon Hill in Jamaica is excellent fast and firm golf, probably slightly better than Tryall, altho the White Witch (also his team) gets higher "ranking" Cinnamon Hill was considered the best on the island by better players, until present operators refused to spend any money on it for the past year.

Of course I would expect no less from a Dick Wilson protege.
Rick Baril seems to have the keys for VonHagge right now.

[David_Madison]

Devlin and Von Hagge did a course in Tamarac, Florida called Colony West, likely around the same time. From the tips it had to be 7400 yards, and perhaps the hardest flat course I've ever seen, even with greens that weren't all that tough. Same deal with runway tees and brutally long holes, especially with the heavy winds. PGA Tour pros would go over there and play while in the area playing either at Doral or the Jackie Gleason Inverrary Classic, and the talk was of all their rounds shooting 75+.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Devlin and Von Hagge did a course in Tamarac, Florida called Colony West, likely around the same time. From the tips it had to be 7400 yards, and perhaps the hardest flat course I've ever seen, even with greens that weren't all that tough. Same deal with runway tees and brutally long holes, especially with the heavy winds. PGA Tour pros would go over there and play while in the area playing either at Doral or the Jackie Gleason Inverrary Classic, and the talk was of all their rounds shooting 75+.

David

I played Colony West many times when visiting my parents who were wintering in the area.  It was indeed over 7200 yards from the back and the runway tees must be 100 yards or more in length.  I never played it from beyond 6800-6900 yards and I think my best score was an 81. What I liked most about it however was the use of dogleg angles and some very strategic bunkering.  As you said, for a flat Florida course they did a very nice job of creating interesting golf.  It's better then most Florida courses.

[Lawrence Largent]

Played Nashville Golf and Athletic a couple of years ago in the State Open. I really liked the course for the most part. The first green is a little severe but for the most part the course really lays well into the land. We played the course from about 7000 yards. The tee on 18 was a little back from the front playing 530, but there was a least a full wedge of tee behind us.

Lawrence

[Mark Arata]

The runway tees must have been their signature, they also did the Links at Key Biscayne/Crandon Park which has the longest tee boxes I have ever seen....The one on the 4th hole has to be almost 70 yards long from front to back...

I just played there on Saturday, except for the glacial pace of play, the course was in great shape and a lot of fun to play.

I also used to play Colony West quite often when I lived in Miami, great course.  

[James Bennett]

Bruce Devlin and Bob Hagge (as Tom Ramsey called him, in the '25 Great Australian Golf Courses and How to Play Them') did the Ocean Shores course on north NSW near Brunswick Heads in 1968.  It was 7,000 yards, and was part of a residential development that struggled for many years (Pat Boone was one of the unlucky developers involved).  The course has survived and gets some good comments these days (I have never seen it).  Pretty long course for a remote residential development in 1968.

Bob Hagge was also involved in the redevelopment of The Lakes in 1968, when the Eric Apperly and Tom Howard course (1928) had to be amended because of the Mascot freeway cut into its heart.  Apparently (according to Tom) this was also the impetus for the adjacent East Lakes public course to be developed.  I am not sure how long the new course was then, but I expect over 7,000 yards.  I played there over 30 years ago and one of the features that stuck in my mind to this day was the runway tees.  The 12th hole was a long, uphill par 4 but the tee extended for perhaps 30 yards behind where the back tee was, plus the 40 yards or so of tee in front.  Yes there were tees built that were not used for many years.  That course could have been stretched to some distance back then, if they wanted.  And forward as well.  First course I had seen with alternate greens (#14 had a ladies green which did not require a water carry, I think #16 also had thiss feature, plus the #17 was a par 5 for men and a shortish 4 for ladies).

The course struggled (amazing to think so now) until the late 70's apparently (accoridng to Tom Ramsey).

An interesting sidenote to The Lakes history was that in 1953, 4 ladie professionals played an exhibition there against the men.  Nothing out of the ordinary - Peggy Kirk, Jackie Pung, Alice and Marlene Bauer.  However, the latter-day redesigner of The Lakes Bob Hagge was married at different times to Alice and to Marlene!

James B

[Andrew Summerell]

Ocean Shores is a reasonable design & still quite a test today. It must have been a monster when first opened.

The Lakes has had many changes to it over the last 40 years & is about to go through a few more. Everything you read about the Apperly/Howard course is full of praise, (Did Apperly ever do any bad work) but I can't really say the same for Hagge's work, as the better holes at The Lakes has always been let down by the many bland holes.

[Mike Hendren]

Played Nashville Golf and Athletic a couple of years ago in the State Open. I really liked the course for the most part. The first green is a little severe but for the most part the course really lays well into the land. We played the course from about 7000 yards. The tee on 18 was a little back from the front playing 530, but there was a least a full wedge of tee behind us.

Lawrence

Lawrence, the first is indeed a poor hole with water straightaway off the tee and an extremely narrow green with water left and sand right.  Just too tough an opener.  Originally, the clubhouse was to be sited on the hill above the 6th green.  The par five 7th would have been the opener with the 6th hole finishing the front nine.  (The sixth was once named as one of the best 18 holes in America by Sports Illustrated).  The current par five 13th would have been the 10th with the par five 12th being the 18th.  I have been told that they are going start construction of the clubhouse on that site in the next year or so.  

The course bankrupted in the 1970's (Originally Crockett Springs CC) and was purchased by Charles Whittemore, who treated it as his pet toy.  He was legendary for two things:  ruling with and iron fist and building tee boxes.  Highest and best use of the property is single-family residential, but I'm told he deed restricted the property prior to his death given his love for the golf course.  Thanks, Dad!

It's my understand that the instruction to the architects was to build a course to host a U.S. Open.  

Ironically, rumor has it that VonHagge has been retained to design a course on the recently purchased Tanya Tucker farm south of town.

We're having somewhat of a boom in Middle Tennessee:  Art Hills at Westhaven in Franklin, VonHagge south of Franklin, Greg Norman in Triune and Jack Nicklaus II north of town in White\House.  

Mike

[Lawrence Largent]

Mr. Hendren

I"ve always said that if someone could come into nashville and build a really good course it would be huge success.  To bad none of the new courses have really good architects. A really good friend of mine just got the assistants job out at Belle Meade. So if I come down this summer I need to get in touch and get together.

Lawrence

[Tim Bert]

This is certainly an interesting course.  The one time I made it out, I was playing in a scramble.  Let's just say I'm glad I wasn't playing my own ball.  It's challenging for sure, though I'm not sure I could handle it as my weekly course.  The first hole didn't quite sit right with me, for the same reasons Mike mentioned.  I agree that the alternate hole routing would fit better.  I'd also agree that it was ahead of its time in 1972.

[Tim Bert]

Mr. Hendren

I"ve always said that if someone could come into nashville and build a really good course it would be huge success.  To bad none of the new courses have really good architects. A really good friend of mine just got the assistants job out at Belle Meade. So if I come down this summer I need to get in touch and get together.

Lawrence

Calling Mr. Doak... we're waiting for you here.  If you can promise results on par with, for instance, Pacific Dunes, then I'm in.  BallyHendren, perhaps?

Based on what I can gather from the terrain at the locations, I think Norman has the better chance for success than Hills.  It will be interesting to see who turns in better work.  

[Mike Hendren]

Tim,

Gil Hanse was originally named as the architect of Westhaven's course.  Bummer.

I too am anxious to see what Norman's team produces.  With the exception of the awful 6th, I really liked Sharks Tooth down on the coast.  

I'm headed up to White House tomorrow to take a look at JN II's course.  Maybe a soft opening this fall.

I'll call in you in the next couple of weeks to tee it up.

Mike

[Russ Miller]

Mike -

Do you have any idea why the switch was made from Gil Hanse to Art Hills?  Doesn't seem like a fair trade.  

The Westhaven development looks interesting from the highway, but I have never driven through it.  Given that it is part and parcel of the development I worry that it will be a house-lined course.

Russ

[Tim Bert]

I'll call in you in the next couple of weeks to tee it up.

Mike

I'm looking forward to hearing from you.  I've got some questions I'd like to ask about the Legends.  Things like "Do they allow me to park an RV overnight in the members lot?"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Von Hagge was not ahead of much but bump design. lol

Tiger,

If you'd played Boca Rio, you'd amend you post.

Boca Rio is a spectacular golf course, just read Ran's write up.

Mark Arata,

The runway tees were a continuance of Dick Wilson's design principles.

Von Hagge worked for Wilson for some time.

[Doug Ralston]

How many of these Middle Tennessee courses public, and how many are private? Anyone know?

Doug

[Tim Bert]

Doug -

Here's my understanding.  Not certain on all of these.

Nicklaus course - semi-private
Norman - Private (pretty sure)
Hills - Private (pretty sure; think I heard it may start semi-private)
Von Hagge - not even sure where this one is
Doak - hopefully close to Franklin and reasonably priced, though curently not even on the drawing board.

[cary lichtenstein]

Von Hagge is redoing Admirals Cove as we speak. It should reopen sometime in November as they are soding the entire course except for the greens.

I'll write it up when it is done.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tiger,

If you'd played Boca Rio, you'd amend you post.

Boca Rio is a spectacular golf course, just read Ran's write up.

Patrick,

Agreed, but out of curiousity's sake, was Boca Rio a tremendous course "out of the box", or more as a result of refinements and renovation over the ensuing years?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Boca Rio was great from the begining.

What's really interesting is the invasive influence of the Brazilian Pepper tree in just five short years, and then, subsequent to that.

It's amazing.

The wind and birds combined to transport the seeds to a property with virtually no Brazilian Pepper Trees an transform it to a property overrun with Brazilian Pepper trees.

They spread like crazy, kill everything underneath them and grow like a weed.

From the begining Boca Rio was outstanding.
In most ways I think it became better, with two possible exceptions, the dimished diagonal orientation of the 4th green and to a lesser degree the 5th green.

The mounding you see today are the acres upon acres of Brazilian Pepper trees that were removed, chopped up, and relocated with dirt used to cover them up.  

The added cost to remove the Pepper Trees was mandated by the permiting agencies subsequent to the begining of the project.

The decision to bury the chopped up trees on top of the landform was a financial decison, since the cost to cart them off property was prohibitive, especially since that entire line item was an afterthought, conceptually and budgetwise, introduced by the permiting agencies after the project had been approved, budgeted and begun.

Let me know when you're coming to South Florida, as you have a perpetual invitation to play there.

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