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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2007, 10:25:13 AM »
Mike:

Why don't you just name a handful of Ross courses that have been improved by other architects post-WW II?  I'm sure there are many candidates ... although I will say that one of the least interesting Ross courses I rated in The Confidential Guide, Brunswick CC in GA, was recently touted by Paul Cowley as a great design which had been screwed up and a terrific restoration opportunity.
Tom,
When you you say "improved by other architects after WW2" I would have to think and I am not doing that today.  Plus I am going on instinct and I probably don't know.  My basis was the "changes" made by supts and green committees that inherited the original DR course and "lived" with the course improving as they went.  I will give you that the majority of the DR routings were good.  IMHO that was his strongpoint....every now and then he would botch a hole such as a 90 degree dogleg we have at Athens CC....and his bunkers and greens were simple enough that they "traveled" well....
It seems around my neck of the woods that if a reputable well established club has a golf course built in the 20's or 30's..well it was a Ross....they will find someway to make it one even if he just wrote a letter to the golf professional or something....many of those have been improved.
I wil say that the best DR course I know in the SE is Holston Hills and I assume that most of the alterations there have been in house....if it was touched by other architects they seem to have left a pretty good golf course.....
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 10:26:17 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2007, 10:29:23 AM »
After WW2, I can't think of much in The Isles, Mark?

Perhaps the changes to the 3rd and 4th at Hoylake by Hawtree, I think.  Haven't seen the new work vby Steel.  How about Steel's new green at Sandwich's 14th?  

Also weren't a couple of the par 3s at Sandwich, the 3rd and 11th changed since the war.  Both sterling holes.

Prince's by all accounts was superior in its original form.

Rye has probably the most diverse and interesting evolution in the history of golf course architecture, involving big names and amateurs.  But it mostly predates the war.  Campbell did a small amount of work in the 50s, adding the 10th.

I've only heard good comments about Martin Hawtree's work at Lahinch.  Although having Mackenzie's great par 3 11th as an alternate hole?

Often you can spot the new work a mile off.  The shaping is so obviously different and crap.  See the Eden.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2007, 11:07:19 AM »
Paul, I guess we have changed far less to most of our courses since the war than the more affluent US.  Moortown has had changes (certainly for the poorer) forced on it by housing being built on what was previously Moor Allerton and Sand Moor courses.  Interestingly, I don't think much damage is being done to the majority of courses by the performance explosion because pros rarely play classical courses on their tours.  They do, obviously for the Open and, for that, regional qualifying is often played on courses of quite modest length (Beau Desert, Stockport, Prestbury, for instance are all about 6,300 yards).  These courses are compact and could not really be lengthened significantly.

Quite a few changes have been made because of the public.  Lindrick had to abandon a hole because of its proximity to a busy main road.  Sandiway lost two or three holes to a new road back in the 1960s and the replacement holes do not seem to have much in common with the rest of the course (Ray/Colt), although the 3rd is a very fine mid-length par-3.  The building of the M60 around Manchester apparently ruined Didsbury, a MacKenzie course.  It now has a number of very awkward holes squeezed into the very corners of its limited acreage and a horrid, long footbraidge crossing of the motorway to a distant part of the course beside a rubbish tip.  Perhaps the worst vandalism was the digging up of a considerable part of another MacKenzie course, Hazel Grove, because of the threat of a large road being built over part of the course.  This threat was present even before the Second World War.  Some time in the late 80s or early 90s the relevant bit of land was compulsorily purchased by the relevant authority, including the old 17th, apparently one of MacKenzie's finest par 3s.  The road was officially cancelled some time after 2000 and the club tried to buy back what was left of the compulsorily-purchased land (including the old 17th).  Some of the land had by then been sold for housing and could not be reclaimed, but the club was refused the chance to buy even the former 17th.  You drive in through the hole on your way up to the club.  Ohhhhhhh!

Does anyone remember Birkdale before the old short 17th was eliminated and the new 12th (rather a good hole, I always think) inserted?  There is a lengthened 17th now, with a new green farther on.  I haven't seen it, but it could be very good if it utilises for its green site the tumbling ground up by the 18th tee.  As you say, Royal Liverpool has been substantially changed in several stages since the war.  I noted the expert opinions of many eminent GCAers at the Buda Cup, most of whom felt that the most recent new holes are not stylistically similar to the rest of the course.  This may be true, but I have always felt that, with the exception of the old 10th and 12th, there was never anything stylistically consistent about the previous layout.  Each hole was very different - certainly no harm in that.

Changes were made to Fulford when the York By-Pass was built.  Unfortunately I didn't know the course before that and older members who remembered it say that a great deal was lost.  Certainly the holes on the far side of the A64 have always appealed to me far more than those nearer the clubhouse.


Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2007, 11:45:31 AM »
Mark

Did you ever see the old holes at Formby?  I've seen a couple of old photos, one is in Peter Allen's "Famous Fairways" book.    I think the "new" holes are excellent, particularly the 8th.  But the old 10th par 5 out of the dunes must have been special.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2007, 01:07:53 PM »
Paul:

The old holes at Formby were still there (being played occasionally) when I visited in the fall of 1982.  Alas, that is my only visit, so I don't remember it all that well, but I think I have a couple of pictures of the holes close to the sea.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2007, 01:57:31 PM »
Paul, Sorry, I didn't see the old holes at Formby.  There seems to be absolutely no trace of them now.  Formby was a hole in my golfing education.  My mother came from Northern Ireland and we quite often used to holiday there with the car, taking a ferry from Liverpool, Heysham or Stranraer.  My mother flew over to Ireland and my father and I played a couple of courses somewhere before catching the ferry.  In those days (1960s) you could turn up at Hoylake, Lytham, Birkdale and the rest and almost guarantee to go out and play.  They never asked for handicap certificates or letters of introduction.  That's also when I first experienced some of the courses of South-West Scotland - you paid the green fee at Southerness at the local hotel bar (the order of the holes was different then).  Funnily enough my father and I played Stranraer with the same two friends we played with at Worcester - funny co-incidence of posts.

Patrick Glynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2007, 07:20:24 PM »
Greetings all. First proper post on GCA - hopefully the first of many.

I have spent hours reading the threads on Lahinch including the delightfully titled "Appalling News from Ireland." This topic asks whether an original can be improved. I believe it depends on the course, the architect & how much the course has changed/evolved from the original plans.

My home course, Lahinch, underwent changes at the turn of the century. I loved the course beforehand, I love it more now. Does that make it better? I am not sure, but I believe so. I really like the new 11th, the 12th playing as a Par 5, the green complex at 6 & while we lament the loss of the Par 3 third, the "old" MacKenzie 11th is still alive & well. Indeed it has been in play for the last 8 months, while the "new" 11th takes a much needed rest.

Hawtree tried to get the course up to "championship" standard, and his original plans included getting rid of large teeing areas & freshening up some more tired greens. I think he did a good job, & Tom Doak said that he felt the greens are quite true to MacKenzie. Overall, I think Old Lahinch was a 8/10 and New Lahinch is probably pushing 9/10.

Just my 2 cents.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2007, 09:24:01 PM »
I think Baltusrol Lower was improved by RTJ's redesign.  From old photos I have seen I think RTJ did pretty good job.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Improving on the original....
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2007, 03:52:21 PM »
What do you all think of the changes at RCD?  I mean the new 16th that Steel designed.  
IMO
16th: Wasted oppertunity
17th:Moved a few bunkers
18th: A good peice of GCA
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 03:53:04 PM by Matthew Hunt »

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