[Mark_Rowlinson]

....or moustaches on the Mona Lisa.

Michael Hendren's Dead Guys thread prompted me to wonder if anyone has 'improved' a course designed by a giant of the golden age, say since the Second World War.  Or, is it the case that every single case of this is vandalism?

[Scott Witter]

Mark:

I'll be interested to see if Mike Young jumps on this one  

[Eric Franzen]

Check out Rees Jones work on Seth Raynor's MPCC Dunes.

EDIT: Please look at Ran's excellent profile for a more indepth look at the course

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mpcc1.html

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

There are many arguments pro and con about Seminole -- how much Dick Wilson changed it, whether that was an overall improvement (most agree the 18th hole is better), and whether Brian Silva's semi-restoration was an improvement or not.

Most people agree that Trent Jones' work at Oakland Hills (South) was an improvement, even if few really know what the Ross course was like.  Likewise, the addition to the far end of Royal Dornoch must be considered a success.

Courses that were redesigned and NOT made better -- Inverness, Oak Hill (East), Scioto, Commonwealth.

I'd like to think that our work at Atlantic City CC consitutes an improvement, but if so, it's partly because the course had already drifted well away from the original design due to tinkering and to housing developed on the perimeter.

[Tom Huckaby]

Check out Rees Jones work on Seth Raynor's MPCC Dunes.

Eric - great call.  I played the before and after and my opinion is that the after is indeed an improvement, and a pretty large one at that.  I wonder if Mr. Huntley concurs... I think he does.

Interestingly, for me the jury's still out about the Shore.  I do think the views were improved without a doubt, but I wonder if overall the course is that much better.... Heresy here, I know... but man I did like the old Shore... the greens were incredible and it had a quirkiness that I found very cool.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

It must be better as it now cracks the Top 100 .

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck -

It must be better as it now cracks the Top 100 .

Jim - but of course.  But funny how that happens when it's really not even #1 at MPCC.

But apologies for deviating from the main purpose of this worthwhile topic.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Check out Rees Jones work on Seth Raynor's MPCC Dunes.

Eric - great call.  I played the before and after and my opinion is that the after is indeed an improvement, and a pretty large one at that.  I wonder if Mr. Huntley concurs... I think he does.

Interestingly, for me the jury's still out about the Shore.  I do think the views were improved without a doubt, but I wonder if overall the course is that much better.... Heresy here, I know... but man I did like the old Shore... the greens were incredible and it had a quirkiness that I found very cool.

TH

Tom,

There is no doubt about it that Strantz' work at MPCC is stunningly attractive but I do remember the old course with some affection. It was all there for you to see, straightforward with very good green countours, a couple, like the 10th and thirteenth unbelievably quick and tricky.
It was probably one of the best courses built in the last forty years for the sum of a $150,00.00. Of course it had no drainage and in our rainy season you could lose a shoe on a couple of the fairways.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Bob:

Good point - drainage alone might make it a definite net improvement on the overall.  I just did love the old Shore... and as people rhapsodize about what's there today, well... I just do wonder.

Oh well, doesn't matter, just a curiousity.  What's there today is fantastic and that ought to be good enough.

TH

[Phil_the_Author]

For all of the abuse it has taken as a course for the work done to it in recent years, I defy anyone to actually make a case that today's 16th hole at ANGC is not far superior to the original par-three.

Maybe not the rest of the course, but this hole was definitely improved.

[Jerry Kluger]

I would be interested in hearing the thoughts of others concerning Baltusrol Lower.  Was the work by RTJ an improvement, and what about the work that was done for the PGA Championship?

[David_Tepper]

Mark Rowlinson -

Weren't a number of courses in the UK converted to airfields during WWII? I think that happened at both Turnberry and Royal Dornoch, among others. I doubt those courses were restored exactly to their prior design.

I also recall reading several courses along the coastline in southern England had various fortifications built upon them to guard against a possible German invasion. Didn't that happen at Royal Cinque Ports (Deal)?

DT      

[Mark_Rowlinson]

David, You're right about Turnberry - what was built after the Second World War was essentially totally new.  I can't speak about Dornoch - that's the territory of Rich Goodale and your good self.  

Prince's was destroyed to the extent that it was doubted whether a course of any kind was viable.  What was built was entirely new.  As far as I know nothing survives of the course upon which Sarazen won his Open.  Felixstowe Ferry was also pretty well entirely rebuilt after the war.  Conwy was totally reconstrucetd after both World Wars, during which it lost its more dramatic dunes.  You could say that Sunningdale Old was improved by a German bomber.  One of the sad losses to the war was Rhyl in North Wales.  It was, apparently, a fine links upon which professional tournaments were staged but was reduced to nine holes because of military occupation and coastal erosion and was further deprived by acquisition of land after the war.  It is a fun little 9-holer these days, but you can still feel what was there once - very sad.  Even worse, the club lost its clubhouse to a fire in its centenary year and lost its valuable archive of photographs and other documents relating to its heyday.

[Mike_Young]

Mark,
Of course they have.
AGAIN let me stress that this site discusses a very small percentage of the courses built by the dead guys....and most of those are discussed by discussion participants that have never seen the course they may be discussing....but many of the courses built during that time were just junk.....so there have been many more that were imporved than were abused.....also I would assume Ross is considered a "giant of the golden age" and I would say the majority of his work that still exist has been improved over the years.....yet the myth continues...IMHO

[Bill Gayne]

I would say that the work Fazio did at Sea`Island Seaside course was definitely better than what was there before.

[Jim Nugent]

What do you all think of the changes at RCD?  I mean the new 16th that Steel designed.  

[Rich Goodale]

Mark (and Tom D)

I didn't step up to the plate to mention Dornoch, as the question related to "golden age" architect's courses that were "improved."  As Old Tom Morris is from the Dark Ages and not the golden age, the course is not relevant to this discussion.

Rich

[cary lichtenstein]

For all of the abuse it has taken as a course for the work done to it in recent years, I defy anyone to actually make a case that today's 16th hole at ANGC is not far superior to the original par-three.

Maybe not the rest of the course, but this hole was definitely improved.

Ditto, I couldn't agree more

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mark,
Of course they have.
AGAIN let me stress that this site discusses a very small percentage of the courses built by the dead guys....and most of those are discussed by discussion participants that have never seen the course they may be discussing....but many of the courses built during that time were just junk.....so there have been many more that were imporved than were abused.....also I would assume Ross is considered a "giant of the golden age" and I would say the majority of his work that still exist has been improved over the years.....yet the myth continues...IMHO

Mike, I'm interested to see that word 'junk' in there.  So who was the least consistent in terms of inspiration of the golden oldies?

[Mike_Young]

Mark,
Of course they have.
AGAIN let me stress that this site discusses a very small percentage of the courses built by the dead guys....and most of those are discussed by discussion participants that have never seen the course they may be discussing....but many of the courses built during that time were just junk.....so there have been many more that were imporved than were abused.....also I would assume Ross is considered a "giant of the golden age" and I would say the majority of his work that still exist has been improved over the years.....yet the myth continues...IMHO

Mike, I'm interested to see that word 'junk' in there.  So who was the least consistent in terms of inspiration of the golden oldies?

Donald Ross.....

[TEPaul]

I think NGLA is now better than it ever was, and I do remember that course from about fifty years ago. I think my own course may not be better than it ever was, or at least it's getting pretty close.

Others are getting there too that I'd like to think through in detail or they're getting real close to the best they've ever been. Perhaps many of them are about to cross that line into the best they've ever been, particularly in over-all and exciting playability.

Jim Finegan's off-the-cuff remark on the sidewalk after lunch to me over ten years ago that if we all look carefully enough we can find things and ways, particularly agronomically, and maintenance-wise, that can make these old course better than they ever were was a prescient remark---I think it really is coming true.

Fisher's Island GC may now be better than it ever was. Shinnecock seems to me to be well on its way too.

[wsmorrison]

I've wondered how the initial iteration of NGLA differed from the course when Macdonald died.  I know the Cape hole was changed, and there are a few early photographs of portions of the original holes in Bahto's book.  But there isn't much detail to consider.  An analysis of the original course compared to the last iteration upon Macdonald's death would be interesting.

Merion was significantly improved over time starting right after its opening in 1912 and before the 1916 Amateur, again with the 1922 acquisition of land enabling the changes to 10,11,12 and 13 and the elimination of crossing Ardmore Avenue prior to the 1924 Amateur.  The changed 1st hole prior to the 1930 Amateur along with other less significant changes and the changed 2nd hole prior to the 1934 Open along with other smaller changes completed the long term reworking of the golf course that we know today.

[TEPaul]

"I've wondered how the initial iteration of NGLA differed from the course when Macdonald died.  I know the Cape hole was changed, and there are a few early photographs of portions of the original holes in Bahto's book.  But there isn't much detail to consider.  An analysis of the original course compared to the last iteration upon Macdonald's death would be interesting."

Wayne:

Like Wilson and Flynn (Valentine) at Merion East, Crump at PVGC, Leeds at Myopia or Fownes at Oakmont, NGLA was constantly changed by Macdonald for about two decades. He wrote about it here and there in pretty fair detail. Greens were changed or moved, bunkers were added, tees added etc for years. It was a work in progress for years just as the others mentioned which coincidentally were all courses of those interesting so-called "amateur" architects who dedicated the remainder of their lives to those projects and courses.

[Mike_Young]

Sean,
I think I would differ....the cream of Ross does not compare to the cream of a few of the others in my mind..say Tillinghast or McK.....
I have not been in a seance with Ross as many have so most of what i say is opinion based on logic not facts as one may be able to obtain in a seance.
1.  I don't think ross really cared that much or he would not have "designed" 400 courses where he only saw the majority of them a few days.....
2.  The majority of his courses were built by local dudes that had never played and never seen a golf course b4.
Most of his courses left too much room for interpretation by these locals....
Now this is not to say that I don't enjoy DR golf courses....BUT I don't enjoy them because they are DR as much as because they have been on the ground long enough for the club to "evolve " them into an enjoyable state.  I would bet that if most of the dead guy courses were built today and had to open within a year or 18 months...they would not be well received in their original state...
JMO
Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Why don't you just name a handful of Ross courses that have been improved by other architects post-WW II?  I'm sure there are many candidates ... although I will say that one of the least interesting Ross courses I rated in The Confidential Guide, Brunswick CC in GA, was recently touted by Paul Cowley as a great design which had been screwed up and a terrific restoration opportunity.

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