[Eric_Terhorst]

What you're lamenting is the pathetic state of golf in the Chicago metro area, especially the North Shore.  The public courses are WAY overcrowded and mostly overpriced.

How can they be both?

Jason, it's a good question. Granted the overcrowding is problematic mainly on weekends when those of us who work for a living are trying to get our golf fix.

On weekends, most courses are full, regardless of price.  The answer to your question is there's a price-taker at every level on Saturday and Sunday.

IMO, Cog Hill #4 is not worth $145, and it's a long drive from Chicago, but everybody wants to play it, so it's overcrowded and overpriced.  At the other end of the spectrum, Shivas' favorite course Jans National is $15, is probably overpriced at that level and is chock-full all the time.

[Jeff Shelman]

Cost certainly impacts where I play.

I am a member of a solid club. You've probably never heard of it, but it host USGA qualifying events every year or two and is going to host the Minnesota state amateur in two years. Because of that, I play almost no golf in town that I have to pay for. I'll get to play some reciprical rounds over the course of the summer and I'll play in a couple of outings. I'll go out of town once or twice a summer and play Big Fish or Giants Ridge someplace like that, but that is about it.

I also have a significant problem with paying triple-digits for green fees. When I'm on the road, I like to find the best 50-75 buck course in a city and play there. Or I look on golfnow or lastminutegolfer. To me, a place has to be pretty special to be worth more than 100 bucks and too often it disappoints.

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt: I don't know that this is exclusively an issue of people who are not in the upper income levels, whatever that is.  Many of the rich people I know (and even a lot of not super rich guys like me) simply refuse to engage in transactions where they feel like they're being ripped off - particularly the guys who made their money on their own.  

Yes, people who are outside of the upper income brackets may be opting for other alternative entertainment forms out of economic necessity, but I am very confident that there are plenty of guys making more than enough money to pay for golf at the high end who are opting for other stuff simply because they don't see the value in golf.  These are the kind of guys who didn't get rich by foolishly pissing money away, so it's in their DNA and they aren't about to start now.  

There are a lot of people for whom income is never "disposable".  They have to get what they perceive as reasonable value in return.  And let me make a point clear for those who may otherwise miss it:  businesses that solely rely on the disposability of people's money without providing something resembling proximate value in return are either fads or schemes, and in either event, they don't last very long - because sooner or later, the market wises up.  

 

 

Shivas,

In all reality, don't middle incomers like us only pay fees at privates where we are guest at our richer than us friends clubs.  Do you ever feel ripped off at any of these clubs.  Isn't private golf for the well connected one of the great bargains in our world.  I'm not interested in names because it is rude and might kill a deal for the less discriminate...but have you ever been ripped off as a guest and if so what percentage would you put that experience to be.

[John Kavanaugh]

Shivas,

What I am saying is.  Have  you  ever  been  ripped  off  by  guest  fees??

[John Goodman]

Dave -

Interesting points you've been making.  It's almost like you were less price-sensitive (or "value-sensitive") when you had less money, no?  Or have the golf courses gotten "worse" in some way?

[C. Squier]

Shivas,

In all reality, don't middle incomers like us only pay fees at privates where we are guest at our richer than us friends clubs.  Do you ever feel ripped off at any of these clubs.  Isn't private golf for the well connected one of the great bargains in our world.  I'm not interested in names because it is rude and might kill a deal for the less discriminate...but have you ever been ripped off as a guest and if so what percentage would you put that experience to be.

I think that's an interesting point.  Especially during the winter months when club members are sending checks off in the mail just to look at snow outside their windows.

Anywho:  Golf is my only vice.  My wife and I are young with no kids (accounted for at least) and we're home-bodies.  So no vacations except for golf trips.  As far as budgets are concerned, my non-golfing wife has her purse/clothing/jewelry fund and I have my golf fund.  Which is nice because the "common fund" doesn't pay for what each other may feel extravagant.  I understand the need for a $200 purse like she understands the need to chop up a $200 round of golf.  

I fly by the seat of my pants, so I willing to pay whatever everyone else is willing to pay.  Some of my golfing buddies are willing to pay whatever, whenever.  Some aren't.  I never want to make a more frugal friend kick out $200 to spend a day at my club if they only want to spend a tenth of that.  So let's go play a 9 hole muni.  A day spent w/ a good friend hitting a little white ball around is all good no matter where.  

Shivas:  Love the crack cocaine --> '82 Petrus transition.  That must be a first on GCA.  Or anywhere for that matter.

CPS

[Mike Sweeney]

Yesterday my wife, the two kids and myself ran a 1 mile and/or 5K road race in Westport, CT. After the race, my wife gave Dylan and me the free pass to play golf. The options were:

Yale - $250 + cart, was not sure of tee time, 30 minutes away, still too hard a course for Dylan.

Longshore in Westport - roughly $100 + cart (kids like the cart), kids could not tee off till 1:00, and as a non-resident I could not lock in a tee time, but since it was windy and cooler, we probably would haave gotten out.

Salem GC - $280, 45 minutes away, as a reciprocal member I have to wait till 11:30 on Sundays but getting out is no problem.

South Pine Creek (Par 3, 9 holes) in Fairfield - $38 which included a pull cart for Dylan and a quick drive past CC of Fairfield.

Our first choice was Longshore, but did not want to wait 3 hours to maybe get a time. Thus the $38 was spent at South Pine. Certainly I need to work on my short game and at SP you can do that. Between other sports, homework and his friends, Dylan really only has interest and time for 18 hole rounds on vacations.

I don't think that I am as dire as Shivas in predicting the golf market and as he starts to play with his kids, his views may change. However, the market for second tier country clubs is definitely soft in New York as many are recruiting new members. Right now we have no interest.

[John Goodman]

Dave -

Interesting points you've been making.  It's almost like you were less price-sensitive (or "value-sensitive") when you had less money, no?  Or have the golf courses gotten "worse" in some way?

Exactly.  That's what I'm getting at about the mindset.  It's easy to be a freewheeling 20 or early 30-something who'll drop money on just about anything (including golf) because at that point you think you're invincible and you're going to conquer the world and all that.  So then it's no big deal to buy expensive sports cars and take lots of nice vacations and drop tons of money on golf.  Then at a certain point, you realize (1) that economic narcissism isn't cool and (2) that you worked your ass off for what you've got ... and you don't feel like getting taken to the cleaners anymore, unless of course your suits are stained.  

Doesn't this say more about "growing old" than it does the state of golf today, Dave?

I noticed something (maybe) similar this weekend, at a music festival, bunch of live bands, crawfish boil, all that stuff.  My wife and I don't tend to go to those kids of things anymore, but decided to this weekend, just for kicks.  Beers were $6 apiece, which really got in my craw, way overpriced.  As we were leaving, some early 20s kids (who were just going in to the thing) asked us where the nearest ATM was.  We ended up giving four of them a ride to an ATM to get cash.  On the way back, the most polite of the kids (and all of them were damned polite, everything short of calling me "sir") says, "why don't you come back in with us, we'll buy you some beers."  I had to smile, because 20 years ago, I would have done the same thing that this kid did - who cares if I drop fifty bucks buying beers for people who took me to the ATM?  Meanwhile, Goodman circa 2007 was still shaking his head at how ridiculously expensive the beer was in the first place.

The mindset you speak of hasn't taken over for me with respect to golf.  But I've got it.  And however logical and sensible it may be, I'm not sure it's an entirely good thing . . .    

[RJ_Daley]

For me, cost is very high on the list.  I combine cost factor with value (perceived value), companions, timing in year (which for northerners has an element of skill or playing ability), and my age or level of resigned satisfaction with status quo.

To explain:  Everyone knows and has their own tolerance for cost.  Cost to me must be what I perceive as value.  I flat out will not pay Kohler fees, Pebble fees, Shadow Creek fees, etc. (no matter how wealthy I could become on the fate of chance lottery winner or something like that).  Yet, I will pay in the range of $1000 for the whole ball of wax trip like to Dixie Cup where that includes RT air, motel, rounds and of course F&B.  But, when I get there, I still want "golf value".  Dixie Cups and a couple King's Putters I've been to were in that category, where the golf was definitely a value like Barona, Rustic, Cuscowilla w/room included, Tour d'Strantz, etc.  And that is because we had great people on the ground that scouted out a great value for the participants.  So, that is what I mean by value related to cost.  It is a sliding scale.

Now, by value and age and skill level, companionship, and timing, I just passed up rounds of $200 + caddie and tip at a place I very much wanted to play (Bandon Resorts) on our recent trip to the Pac Norwest.  I'm not about to pay that kind of ping for a round at this point in the year, would have had to play alone, where I most definitely wouldn't break 90 and probably not 100, nor did the whole idea of $200 sit well with me in the first place.  I tried to walk up at twilight for a price break, and all three courses were open at that point, but no dice.  So, I moved on...  Same trip - I played with an esteemed GCAer at his very nice CC in Portland and got great value, good company, and didn't feel stung due to lousy skill level, all for a very reasonable guest price.

I pay $1134 for an unlimitted pass here in Green Bay at a darn good golf course.  We have great F&B at a very reasonable price.  I feel very lucky when I hear others by comparison.  

I would most certainly line-up for a membership application at Southern Pines GC Elks club if I were in that area.  I would actually put that area high on my retirement area list for such value.  

I know exactly where the greatest 8-9 month a year value golf is, but my wife isn't interested to move there.  I'd move for the golf!  But, that isn't value when you consider the divorce costs and all...  

So, to make a longer story shorter, cost and value and perceptions are a very sliding scale...  But, just so you guys know where you stand... I like you, but none of you are worth me paying $450 a round to play 18 with you.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Going back to mindset for a second...after a long day at the waterpark, nobody felt like cooking tonight, so we ordered pizza.  We ordered from some joint that I'd never heard of before.  It came.  We ate.  I liked it.  I haven't asked my wife what it cost yet.  But if I think it was overpriced vis-a-vis the value of Carmen's or Lou Malnotti's (the Ferarri and Lamborghini of pizza around here), even though I liked it, we will never buy it again....Shivas Schmidt

Dave, don't take this the wrong way, but, don't you think that including the price of a pizza in your values-rant is a little over-the-edge? I mean c'mon, if you liked the damn pie what does it matter if it's a little overpriced when compared to the two best. By the way, do they deliver?


p.s. boomers aren't the "Me" generation

[John Goodman]

I dunno Dave.  Aren't these Xers kids that have grown up seeing their parents spend money like drunken sailors?

Of course, if you're right about the up and coming generation, then "value" won't save the game anyway, since that generation doesn't care about golf (for "value" or otherwise).  Unless value for the next release of Tiger Woods X Box counts.

We haven't met, but you are sounding suspiciously like my dad, who knows that you get the best dinner values if you go to the restaurant by 4:30 pm . . .  


 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dave,
 

[Tom Yost]

Basically, I'm a cheap ass, so I would be about a 3 on your scale.

My typical round/comfort zone is approx $45.  An occasional splurge might take me into the  $65-75 range.  In fact, $75 is the most I've ever spent on a round of golf.

As Phoenix is a big winter tourist attraction, golf at that price point is hard to come by and where it exists, is in extremely high demand.  I get through the winter by playing less often, walking on as a single at the munis (where tee times are hard to come by), watching for coupons and specials, and playing the third tier daily fee courses.  

Summertime comes however, and the same $45 will buy a round at the resorts that charge $150-200 in the winter.  An occasional splurge of $60-75 will get one on the most expensive top courses. As well, a lot of good options in the $25-35 range makes summertime my most active golfing season.

I'm at a point where I can afford (and plan) to take some golf vacations, and I realize I will need to far exceed my comfort zone if I want to experience some of the top golf courses like Pinehurst or Bandon.  Nonetheless, I will be likely be audibly squeaking!

Tom

[Ash Towe]

Cost for me is the most important factor.  I am a member of a club and the annual fees are $1500 per year.  That is the just about the limit of what I can afford.  The major reason I joined was convenience, the course is 10 minutes from home.  Architecture was a consideration but factors such as convenience were more important, mainly for family reasons.
When overseas, cost is a consideration but if you spend $1700+ travelling for example to the US then it seems reasonably justifiable to spend a decent amount on a course you particularly would like to see and is likely to be a one off. I would be lucky to make such a trip once every 2-3 years. Green fees in my home country with a few exceptions are usually under $50 so that is not really a factor.

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