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Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« on: May 07, 2007, 06:49:51 AM »
    We have added around 200 yards to our pretty heavily (but becoming much less so) treed course.  The project has been a huge success.  One possibly unintended result - on a couple of holes, the "chute effect" off the tees has become more pronounced.  I played a match yesterday against a guy who played in a U.S. Senior Open a couple of years ago.  (Shockingly, I prevailed.)  In discussing the new tees, he offerred that the USGA has a rule of thumb for chutes in tournament play.  Draw a straight line from either side of the tee box toward the target.  He says that the USGA prefers   approximately 25 yards of room to either side of the lines.  This makes sense to me.  Is this preference written anywhere?  Do any of you architects out there have a rule of thumb?  Does it make any difference if we're talking about a par 3, long par four, short par 4, or par 5?  Inquiring minds need to know.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2007, 07:22:04 AM »
The USGA has a rule of thumb on trees and chutes? I doubt that. If they did, they would not have been able to play the Open last year at Winged Foot. The "rule" you suggest is excellent advice and clubs would do well (at a minimum) to follow it, but it's not USGA practice, nor even a standard for their Green Section Turf Advisory Service.

wsmorrison

Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2007, 07:51:59 AM »
Jim,

I take it you are talking about your northern course.  Which holes have enhanced chute effects?  I guess 2 might and 4 does.  Most of the tree lines are on one side, aren't they (8,11,14)?  There isn't much of a chute effect on 16 and 17 because the width between the trees is so great.

Let's have an honest discussion here.  Do you think that tee lengthening is a huge success?  There are some that are excellent but others are very poor.

The 1st tee has been left alone for now.  Perhaps it is a budgetary constraint, but that tee is out of context with the natural landforms used by Flynn.  It should be lowered and lengthened and hopefully will be at some point.

The 2nd tee was unnecessary for the meager added length.  The added danger from slices off the 4th tee and protective tree planting is worrisome.  It is on the wrong side of the tree.  The key component of the tee shot, the left to right cant of the fairway, has been nullified to a large extent by moving the tee to the right and hitting more into the cant of the fairway rather than with it.  This was a big mistake.

For a mere 15 yards of added length the 4th tee is cantilevered into the hillside with big boulders supporting it.  Given the front driveway goes right past it and it is fully visible, I think, like the 1st, it lacks the qualities of that portion of the property.  Flynn used the natural qualities of the land to make some spectacular natural landform holes.  This counterpoint to naturalism for a mere 15 yards is not a success at all.

The 5th hole has been lengthened and I think that is a good thing as it brings the pivotal ridge line turbo boost/anti-turbo boost back into play for stronger players.  The tee is propped up in an unnatural way, but without using tons of extra fill to tie in better, I don't see how it could have been avoided.  It is not on the correct line of play.  It should have been in line with the former back tee box.

The 6th was a well done, low profile tee.  I don't know if the hole needed lengthening as I would have liked to keep one of the longer par 3s under 200 yards and thought 191 uphill to that difficult green complex was sufficiently hard.

The 8th tee is fine but you have too many tees now and it looks busy, like you're trying to be all things to all golfers.  I think some of the middle tees should have been made smaller and one removed.

The 9th hole is where the club should have added length.  Make the long holes even longer and this one could have become even greater with another 20-25 yards.  That lengthening makes a lot more sense than the 15 extra yards you got on 2 and 4.

I applaud the construction of the Flynn tee on 10 and while it wasn't built, it was planned to be a 260 yard par 3 in 1926.  And finally, 81 years later, the tee is in.  It is an excellent tee.

I saw the 11th during construction.  I'm sure it looks better grassed, but for visibility's sake, the natural right to left slope was channeled out leaving another overtly man-made feature on a natural landform hole.  Granted the greensite is benched into the hillside, but in typical Flynn fashion it looks great and perhaps the great bunker below the green helps obscure the architecture.  The new rear 11th tee is propped up too high and too close to the path so that it drops off so steeply that it is unsightly.  I'd rather have a blind tee shot using trees in the distance to guide the shot.  That would have been more appropriate on a classic era course than the gouging that was done.  Maybe if the slope were taken down gradually rather than abruptly it would work better.  Or maybe the forward tee could have been lowered sufficiently.  An architect would have been a great help in making a better decision.  

The 14th tee was very welcome and they did a great job building it.  It is a little further back than I thought appropriate given it was going to be in play on a daily basis.  It is one of the most difficult par 3s in golf.  With a green and shot demand similar to the 3rd at Merion though the approach at Merion is far steeper.

15 has one of the great chutes I've ever seen.  Having now seen the 18th at Augusta, the chute on the short 15th at Rolling Green is much more intimidating.

The back tee on 16 is nothing short of excellent.

The back tee on 17 is nothing short of a mess.  It should have been close to the natural grade and not propped up 10 feet or so.  Trees should have been taken down (wouldn't this help the agronomics on the 16th green?) and the tee moved just to the left along the line of play from the current tee.

The back tee on 18 is terrible.  It is placed on the north side of a large tree so I'm sure it will be tough to maintain.  The added length creates a strategic disconnect with the turn of the hole, the slope of the fairway and the bunkering.  It creates a unity of shot demands and takes away a great deal of strategy.  Driver, mid-iron around the corner and mid-iron approach.  BORING.  The hole would be much better played as a par 4 for stronger golfers from the member tees.  Let everyone else play it as a par 5 from the back of the member tees and certainly no farther back than the old back tee.

That's my take on the tees at Rolling Green.  Some great successes, some moderate successes and a few failures.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2007, 08:09:06 AM »
   Wayne:
     The two holes where the chutes are more pronounced are 4 and 14.  Two trees need to be removed on 4, and around ten on 14.  I played a team match two weeks ago, when a good young player with a draw hit a shot on 14 that probably would have missed the green by 10 yards on the right.  The ball hit a tree 75 yards from the tee and ended up behind the tee.  Not good.
    No need to debate the new tees here.  Others would be bored.  I agree with you on hole #1.  Disagree on most of your other thoughts.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 09:00:28 AM »
Jim:

I am not a big fan of teeing off from a chute of trees, but I have never had a rule of thumb about how far off the line the trees should be ... so much depends on the size and branching habit of the trees.  I suppose having a rule of thumb would help shut down arguments with members, but I've always just done it visually.

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2007, 09:11:32 AM »
Tom:
   Thanks for the response.  You are correct.  I was hoping for something to "shut down" the argument - "Learn to hit it straight."  They just don't get it.

wsmorrison

Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2007, 09:23:05 AM »
Jim,

Too bad you don't want to address the individual comments I made.  I thought this was a discussion forum.  

If you want to make a comment about a project being a huge success, it would be instructive to let us know specifically why you feel that way or else comments such as that have little meaning.  That is why I took the time to comment hole by hole.  They are my opinions and present an opportunity to learn about various philosophies.  Sorry you don't want to discuss public reactions to your public statement.

Aside from the several excellent tees additions, I worry that regarding success in tee lengthening in general and at RGGC specifically  is that it is viewed on the scorecard and not on the ground.  Some clubs are fixated on higher overall yardage numbers.  How you get there is another matter and I hope clubs take their time to make sure there are no strategic disconnects and other failures in the quest for length.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 10:37:04 AM by Wayne Morrison »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2007, 09:43:12 AM »
 I haven't played those new tees, (I haven't played any tees there for a month!) but saw them under construction. The trees on #4 are obvious to take out;they should never have been planted in the first place.

   Jim,

    It concerns me that so many trees need to come out on #14. Believe it or not , I like hardwoods on golf courses.

  Do you think better placement of the new tee, more to the left could have avoided this dilemma? Or do you think that might have necessitated moving the cart path, which ,of course, is sacrosanct ?
   
    Do you think if we had used a consultant that the tee could have been placed during construction in a place to preserve the trees and sacrifice the cart path?

  Is the decrepit tree to the right of #8 still there?



   If the original designer planned for chutes then I see their merit.

    Obviously, when you move the tees back the width needs to be increased. This was addressed on #6 and #16 effectively.




     The main issue is whether the chute created by moving the tees back eliminates the design concept from the previous tees.



      Aren't we just talkin' 'bout trees? It can't be that complicated, can it ::)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 10:05:08 AM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2007, 10:03:56 AM »
    Removing trees won't affect the shot values of the original tees.  The point is they only are relevent because of the new tees.  Believe me, the trees that should come out on #14 will never be noticed.  Removal will only make the hole prettier and more dramatic.  
   As for your "original architect's intent" mantra, you know how tired I am of that reasoning for doing or not doing anything.  Trust me, Flynn wouldn't want a chute so narrow that a wayword tee shot results in the next shot being played behind you.  Sorry, I forgot.  You don't have to trust me.  You can ask him yourself.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2007, 10:09:35 AM »
 My point was that by moving the tees back the trees that were not intended to be there in the first place but only affected play moderately before became a problem after the tees were moved back. This eliminated the original design intent.

   Why didn't someone on the green committee recommend removing those two trees on #4?


   Jim,

     It was quite obvious that the placement of the new tee on #14 would bring those trees on the right into play. Why didin't they just move the tee a little to the left? It would still be directly behind the old tee? Why didn't we use a consultant to help us avoid this costly tree removal?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 10:14:04 AM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2007, 10:22:45 AM »
   Because moving it to the left would bring trees on the left even more in play than they are now.  And now they impinge too much (in my humble opinion).  I think the tee is great.  The tree issue is just tweeking.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Chutes -- Rule of Thumb?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2007, 10:31:27 AM »
  Jim Coleman's way or William Flynn's way? I can't make up my mind !
AKA Mayday

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