[Phil Benedict]

Who are the greatest players never to have studied with a swing coach?

Hogan, Snead, Jones, Trevino, Nelson.  Nicklaus had Jack Grout but he was a club pro, not a brand.  Arnie had Deak, which is the same thing.  Basically every great player pre-1980.

[BCrosby]

How many great players pre Nicklaus-Grout had a swing coach at all?

Depending on what you mean by swing coach. Stewart Maiden taught Jones, but he did not accommpany him to tournies, they would go months without seeing each other. Is that a swing coach?

Come to think of it, Grout didn't travel with Nicklaus either.

Snead, Hogan and maybe Nelson (Nelson took lessons from G. Jacobus at one point in the '30's) have to be the best players in history that were, essentially, self taught and self maintained during their entire careers.

Bob

[Jim Nugent]

I thought Nicklaus knew his swing well enough that he was his own on-course swing coach.  i.e. he could make adjustments to his swing during the tournaments, while playing.  

[BCrosby]

Jim -

I think that's right.

My guess is that the modern version of the swing coach (a coach expected to be on call 24/7 and who travels with his tutee) began with the Faldo - Leadbetter (sp?) partnership.

Bob

[Tim Pitner]

Among current players, my understanding is that Goosen is one of the very few players who doesn't rely on a swing coach--one of the reasons I like him.  If I had his swing, I wouldn't use a coach either.  

[Phil Benedict]

Goosen's swing looks great but he is not a very good ball-striker.  That's the danger when you start comparing swings - the whole form-versus function thing.  Jim Furyk (no swing coach) may be a better ball-striker than Goosen.  Who has a better swing?

[Tim Pitner]

Goosen's swing looks great but he is not a very good ball-striker.  That's the danger when you start comparing swings - the whole form-versus function thing.  Jim Furyk (no swing coach) may be a better ball-striker than Goosen.  Who has a better swing?

Goosen's not a good ball striker?  Huh?  Goosen struggles with his driver going left (he has a slight over the top move), but he's one of the best iron players in the world.  He moves the ball both ways and also has a great ability to get his irons to stop from out of the rough.  Goosen's a great scrambler but, when he's on, he's also a great ball-striker.  He does rely a lot on timing and is therefore inconsistent.  Maybe he could use a swing coach, but I kind of like that he doesn't.  

[Dan_Callahan]

Among current players, my understanding is that Goosen is one of the very few players who doesn't rely on a swing coach--one of the reasons I like him.  If I had his swing, I wouldn't use a coach either.  

From an article online:

Retief Goosen has spent the last nine years sorting out his swing problems, and it has worked well enough to bring him two United States Open titles. But his frustration reached a new level this year, which caused Goosen, a stoic South African, to do something radical by his standards.

He hired a coach.

Goosen is working with Gregor Jamieson, an instructor at Lake Nona in Orlando, Fla., and he already has seen some results.

[Phil Benedict]

At the moment Goosen is 176th in driving accuracy and 146th in GIR on Tour.  Furyk is 2nd in driving accuracy and 37th in GIR.  However, Goosen's average drive is 15-yards further (287 to 272).

I admit these are stats for a partial year, but at least over this time period Furyk's swing has performed better than Goosen's.

[Tim Pitner]

Among current players, my understanding is that Goosen is one of the very few players who doesn't rely on a swing coach--one of the reasons I like him.  If I had his swing, I wouldn't use a coach either.  

From an article online:

Retief Goosen has spent the last nine years sorting out his swing problems, and it has worked well enough to bring him two United States Open titles. But his frustration reached a new level this year, which caused Goosen, a stoic South African, to do something radical by his standards.

He hired a coach.

Goosen is working with Gregor Jamieson, an instructor at Lake Nona in Orlando, Fla., and he already has seen some results.

Well, so much for that.  At least he hired a no-name coach, which is sort of like going on your own.

[Greg Holland]

Interesting opinion on this subject:

This Week at TravelGolf.com: May 17, 2007

Mickelson putting a swing coach pox on PGA golf with his Butch Harmon love

Phil Mickelson's blossoming schoolgirl crush on Butch Harmon is cute and all. Even if they did get yelled at in Mr. Allen's seventh-grade biology class for passing those notes with snazzy hand-drawn hearts.

Still, it's one of the worst things that can happen to golf. Not the particular pairing. Mickelson-Harmon isn't going to mean anything in the long run with Tiger Woods around. And it might even provide more unforgettably tender moments.

If Phil somehow wins another green jacket will he and Harmon both strip off their shirts in perfect synchronization and run around Augusta National shrieking a la Brandi Chastain?

The Mickelson-Harmon union is just a symptom of a larger plague: The increasing adoration of swing coaches on the PGA Tour level.

College basketball lost its charm once the coaches became mega celebrity endorsement machines who are bigger than the players and, in some cases, larger than the entire university. Self-serving windbags like Mike Krzyzewski squeeze much of the joy out of the college game, turning it into a three-week March gambling event rather than a sports one.

Now, it seems like golf is determined to adopt those ways.

Tiger actually struck a blow to this maddening advance of swing coach mania when he ditched Harmon for basically acting too much like a college hoops coach (taking all the credit). But by embracing Butch out of desperation and a need to give the media something to talk about besides his own brain farts, Mickelson is pushing it even farther the other direction.

Think about watching golf in the 1980s. Heck, the early 90s. Did you ever hear about a swing coach?

Maybe once every month. Maybe. Now the Leadbetters get more TV time than Regis Philbin.

Sure Jack Nicklaus had a swing coach, Jack Grout. But Nicklaus wasn't as dependent on his coach as a toddler can be on a blanket like so many of today's players.

"I really didn't run to Jack Grout every five minutes for a golf lesson," Nicklaus told Golf Today. ". I don't know how the guys do it. But that's the way they've grown up."

Like wimps. And it's only getting worse and making golf look worse.

[Andy Hodson]

That's a ridiculous argument.

Why all the love for the golf equivalent of the Marlboro Man...go it alone, my swing is my swing, if its broke I'm the one to fix it type?

Golf is not worse off for the so-called swing gurus. These guys are playing for tons of money, and will look for any and all legal advantages, which includes another set of eyes. And the teaching of the golf swing has advanced greatly in the last 30 or so years. As has the profession of instructor.

Part of the intrigue with who is working with Tiger or Phil is that, now days, the average golfer/fan can (for a price, Ugarte) work with the same instructor...at his or her academy of golf.

Some will say there were no academies of golf in the good old days. But I would disagree. I know of one that turned out many a tour pro...it was called Winged Foot Golf Club, and Mr. Harmon ran it. Problem was...you had to work for him, or be a member, to take part in it.

By the way, name me one big-time corporation that doesn't hire consultants. Name one vocalist/dancer/artist, etc. that didn't have a teacher and/or mentor.

I bet the writer of that article has an editor!

(Interesting note: Butch was on the local sports radio here in Houston on Thursday and said he has never charged a tour player for his work.)

Edit: Maybe the writer of the article doesn't have an editor...how in world can he blame Coach K for making March Madness a three week gamble-thon? That's absurd and just wrong? Self-serving windbag...the mirror doesn't lie indeed!

[Kalen Braley]

IMO, much of thier increased pubilicty has to do with the increased media attention that the game gets. And The Golf Channel is leading the charge.  Finding content for wall to wall golf coverage can be challenging, so more and more they delve into coaches and other aspects of the game.

On a related note, does anyone here have contacts at the golf channel?  Can we find out why we can't get an hour per day devoted to golf architecture?  I'd much prefer that over the infomercial better known as "Whats in the bag?".

[JESII]

Actually some really interesting perspectives here.

What really struck me as I read greg Hollands post (and it even gets to GCA) is that the golf courses these guys play have evolved, architecturally and in maintenance presentation, to dictate more instructor oversight. Golf has become more of a video game for them where they almost point and shoot and get the predictable outcomes they desire.

Uncertaintly (read: luck) is being squeezed out of the pro game with equipment technology, agronomic advances and birdie ball course selections so why not find the best way to hit the best shots all the time...figuring it out for yourself is not a requirement anymore and can only leave you a few steps behind the competition.

[George Pazin]

Anyone who thinks Butch took credit for Tiger's success hasn't read or listened to a single word Butch has said.

And anyone who thinks the old guys did it their own way because today's golfers are wimps is beyond clueless.

[Eric Pevoto]

Hear, hear, George.  

In one way or another, the greats had someone who watched and coached them.  Hogan didn't spend time at Seminole every Spring just to play Mr. Harmon for a few dollars.

In my opinion, Butch's unique contact with the history of the sport makes him different than the other top teachers.  His detractors say he's simply a better storyteller than the others, but these stories reflect his knowledge of competitive golf, all of golf really.  He's seen it all: from teaching the king of Morocco to teaching the game's best, with about 10 years of opening and closing the shop at a humble muni in Texas in between.

He's said he would rather teach shots than "the" swing; a throw-back in that respect.  I also know for a fact that he doesn't coddle his students or try to keep them close to his hip.

 

 

[George Blunt]

Just one question:

Who was responsible for that rather "Normanesque" shot into 18 on Sunday?  Phil or Butch?

Cheers,

George

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