[John Kavanaugh]

John - Where do you draw the line (and give me a good rationale?)

Does your club require you to rent golf clubs each round?  Why not?

Are you allowed to bring golf balls and tee, or do you have to purchase them in the golf shop prior to each round?

I support my local pro.  It is safe to say that I only rent balls and clubs based on the time they spend in my possesion.  I can't imagine there being a problem with buying a push cart from the course instead of renting one for each round.  I could even see and would prefer if push carts were free much like range balls, tees and scorecards currently are.

Fuzzy is an Indiana icon but when he hawked clubs for KMart he put a dagger in every pro's heart.  I'd like to be better than that.

[Michael Whitaker]

Here in Chicago, where caddy programs are more holy than cows roaming the streets fo Mumbai, the push cart is considered a threat to caddy programs and therefore evil.

This is the same reasoning that requires 4 golfers with bad knees but 20-16 eyesight to take a forecaddy with their group to help them find balls they can see for themselves.

Again, protect the caddy program at all costs.

Which brings me to my question:  if caddies are so wonderful, and every club wants them, why do they need protection from every potential competitive threat?  Why are caddy programs being artificially regulated like this?  

Most clubs are full of free-market thinkers who bitch and moan any time they read in the paper that government has regulated anything, yet when it comes to caddy programs, they're willing to basically outlaw anything that threatens caddy programs and require the use of caddies in addition to carts at all but the oddest times.  

Here's a novel thought:  maybe, just maybe, (even at a country club...gulp   ), demand for caddies is elastic.  Caddy programs thrived when caddies cost about minimum wage or less, but now that they're up to decent wages on a per-hour basis ($15-20 per hour) that is well in excess of the minimum wage, perhaps many people simply don't see the value there anymore.  

And why are they being charged what they're being charged?  In large part, because caddies aren't subject to competition in the market!  

I'd bet that 3/4 of the clubs in Chicago would see their caddy rates drop almost in half if they allowed push carts for $5 a round.  Why is that such a bad thing?  The people who want caddies still get them - and for less.  And the people who want push carts get push carts.  Everyone wins.  

The hilarious part is that many of these same people are the ones bitching and moaning about the skyrocketing cost of the game in terms of dues, greens fees, equipment, land costs, etc.  Yet here they are, foisting an inferior product at artificially-inflated prices on their fellow golfers...

Exactly!

[John_Cullum]

At our muni we have all types of push carts...old ones, new ones, "souped up" ones...all kinds. Two things, these people are walking, and they are playing golf. There is nothing wrong with that! That is all that matters.

You're right. there is nothing wrong with that at your muni.

And there is nothing wrong with Chris wanting to appeal to a different niche.

[Bob_Huntley]

John - Where do you draw the line (and give me a good rationale?)

Does your club require you to rent golf clubs each round?  Why not?

Are you allowed to bring golf balls and tee, or do you have to purchase them in the golf shop prior to each round?

I support my local pro.

John,

The two private clubs with which I have some familiarity, own the shop, not the Pro.

Bob

[Bob Jenkins]

I belong to a long established private club in Vancouver and the push / pull  carts have been made available without charge for as long as I can remember. I agree with a few others that so long as you are out playing and walking, that is what is important.

Although I commonly carry my bag, there are times when my back tells me I had better not and having the pull carts works out fine. I would guess that at our course, 10% go by power cart, 40% carry and 50% take a pull cart. That is common in this part of the world but none of the major clubs in this area have a caddie program, so far as I am aware.

I do not see why so many are opposed to them. If my back is acting up I can still walk and do without a power cart, which I loathe.

[Kalen Braley]

For someone who asked what a pushcart is...here is an example of one.

[Joe Perches]

I expect that in the next 10 years or so, semi-intelligent tag-along bag-carrying carts with vision systems will exist, and be pretty cheap too, that are aware of course boundaries, putting greens, bunkers and players.  They'll probably be integrated with video display screens and those Intelligolf type programs that track every shot you've ever taken on a course and suggest appropriate clubs.  

You won't have to carry one of those remote controls anymore.  I'd give up carrying my own clubs for one of those.

Now if we can just come up with a fly mowing and bunker raking attachment...

[John Kavanaugh]

For someone who asked what a pushcart is...here is an example of one.

A tour bag on a push cart.  That is proof they need to be banned.  Pull carters are pushy people..therein lies the problem.

[Michael Whitaker]

Does it always come down to a struggle between the "Business" of golf vs the "Game" of golf?

[John Kavanaugh]

Does it always come down to a struggle between the "Business" of golf vs the "Game" of golf?

Golfers by definition are selfish.  I have never heard a valid argument to get rid of caddies that is not based on money.  

[PThomas]

I'll never understand how a pull cart can be considered tacky looking...but golf carts are "acceptable"  

and "trail fees" are a really stupid thing

Shiv:  you make some great points how some many free-marketers insist on mandatory caddies...i think that's called hypocritical

[Chris Cupit]

Shivas,

Caddies were subject to the market forces of country clubs, and that is why they are largely extinct today.  Most people (95% plus) did not feel caddies were worth the extra money and today caddies have virtually disapeared.  They are not unlike the teenager who used to fill your car with gas, check the oil and wipe your windshield--people don't want to pay for the service.

Your notion that caddies fees drop because of increased competition from push carts ignores a very basic fact--people will not work if they feel the wage is too low.  You can't force the caddies to show up at half their rate--they will find another job--and they have.

I am about as libertarian as they come but the distinction I draw is this:  I made a CHOICE to join a club that is willing to artificially "prop up" a caddie program that could otherwise "die".  My home club believes that a caddy is an important enough tradition of the game that it is worth paying "extra" for it.  Certainly, some members grumble about it but I go back to the fact that they knew the rules going in and if caddies were not something they wanted to support, they should have joined somewhere else.

The choice of clubs is certainly subject to the free market but once inside, a club is not the free market--it (in good circumstances) is a group who, while unique and headstrong as individuals, agree on some common purposes and principles--caddies happen to be one at my club and I happily support our chosen method to keep them coming to the club.

Another example--some of my dues goes to complimentary coffee and snacks in the bar--I don't drink coffee but I am "forced" to pay for it through my dues.  Many club events are run at a loss and ultimately paid for via dues--if I don't play in the events, I am subsidizing other members who choose to play.  That's just part of belonging to a club.

BTW the club I run does not have caddies.  My market is affordable  private golf and caddies are not part of that equation.  (In the Atlanta market a survey of 40 private clubs (excluding the Canongate Group) showed that only one private club had dues less than mine).  

Those that vilify operaters as greedy need to remember that golf is not a right or an entitlement.  If golf can not make economic sense for the consumer AND the owner then ultimately, there will be no more golf or only very limited and expensive golf.

Certainly, owners need to realize that members/customers/golfers can not be squeezed dry for every last nickel without causing resentment but consumers who will not support their courses need not be surprised if that owner sells out one day and "their" course is replaced by condos!  

I promise, the ROI today in golf is not that great.  I believe many if not most operaters stick with it out of a love for the game at least as much as any economic return.

[Bob_Huntley]

Does it always come down to a struggle between the "Business" of golf vs the "Game" of golf?

Golfers by definition are selfish.  I have never heard a valid argument to get rid of caddies that is not based on money.  

John,

I don't know what your net worth is or how much you make, but there are a lot of men that I know who would like to play three or four times week. If they had to take a caddie to do so they would be unable to afford it. The idea that someone is cheap that would like to use a push cart or carry his own bag is plain bullshit. Does your wife have a domestic servant every time she does the wash and iron? I think not.

Bob

[Chris Cupit]

Chris,

I think push carts are great if they all look the same and are maintained the same by the club.  

So I guess the guys at the various clubs I see that have blue carts, maroon carts, yellow carts, camo-painted carts, black carts with lifters, etc. etc. etc. would, by this same reasoning, be excluded.  Everybody needs to own a green cart with no extra amenities?

Chris,

You're right.  Your course is a private course that has known policies for the members going in.  Seems to be working for you, and that's great.

But, I'm in the camp of not understanding the need to have a uniform look to push carts.  Is it really that big of a deal?  Do you allow privately-owned golf carts at your facility, and if so do they all have to have a uniform appearance?

I bought a push cart last year before my first trip to Scotland to get in good walking shape.  Since then, a number of guys in my regular group have purchased them also, to the extent that we now regularly have 8 walkers in our Saturday morning group.  The fact that they aren't all blue or green or whatever does not seem to diminish whatever value we perceive our club offers us.  Haven't heard any gossip around the club that we're pulling down property values, or attracting riff-raff.  We don't have a caddy program, and my group is mostly 45 years of age +.  We enjoy walking, but don't want to carry.

We do not allow private carts.  We do have two members who live on the course and asked if they could buy a cart and drive it on the paths to the club (instead of driving a car).  We allowed that but asked that they buy the same carts that we have (Color, model etc.--they can buy them anywhere).  It's been OK but we do have an issue on busy days with their carts being parked in our staging areas and I sometimes worry what could happen if they have a wreck in their cart on my property as they are headed home one night?

Also, whenever their cart breaks down or need parts they always seem to end up in my shop for repairs--not a money issue just one of diverting the time and energy of my mechanic.

Having the same color push carts will help us know if someone has brought a private push cart when they are not supposed to  I have never had a problem with push carts but I think that a uniform look helps ensure a better "look" for the club.  When people bring their own, that's when the "tacky factor" can go up.

Everyone else,

I like push carts!  I have used them a lot oversees as well as in some qualifying events in the US.  I host a USGA qualifier every year and competitors are free to bring their push carts and I host a junior event every summer and juniors can also bring their push carts if they want.

I am just trying to add an amenity for my membership without cannibalizing my cart revenue!!! If this makes me the devil incarnate, I will give you my address so you can stay far, far away from me

[John Kavanaugh]

Does it always come down to a struggle between the "Business" of golf vs the "Game" of golf?

Golfers by definition are selfish.  I have never heard a valid argument to get rid of caddies that is not based on money.  

John,

I don't know what your net worth is or how much you make, but there are a lot of men that I know who would like to play three or four times week. If they had to take a caddie to do so they would be unable to afford it. The idea that someone is cheap that would like to use a push cart or carry his own bag is plain bullshit. Does your wife have a domestic servant every time she does the wash and iron? I think not.

Bob

Bob,

I have the exact same problem.  I am trying to walk as much as possible but can only afford a caddie at most once a week.  I have been forced to only carry 9 clubs so I can carry my own because my clubs do not allow push carts.  Let's assume I live where I could take a caddie twice more a week for 52 weeks of the year...That would cost me 104 loops at $75 per loop which equals $7800.  It would be a bitch and take some sacrifice but I would be playing one hell of a lot of golf and probably save that much money on medical bills and life insurance premiums.

Shivas,

Those of us who like to walk have the discussion all the time about how great it would be to be able to walk and not have to lay out the money for a caddie.  We are trying to protect the program and do end up taking carts which are much cheaper because of such.  One problem we have is that our caddies are older guys who work every year and are actually friends.  I see them at ball games and this and that all the time and wouldn't feel all that great about putting them out of work so I could push a stupid trolley when I do have the option of just getting in better shape and carrying my own.  It would be different if we were forced to take caddies, especially forecaddies, and they were kids or transients.

[Craig Sweet]

"my clubs do not allow push carts."

John, that's a pity...for $150 you could buy a nice Sun Mountain Speed Cart, carry all the clubs you want, and play more golf...and after all...playing more golf, in the manner you desire, is what its all about.

[Kerry Gray]

I believe courses should do everything they can to encourage people to walk. Courses with exceptional elevation changes and extreme weather are two reasonable exceptions. I would not be a member at a cart manditory course.
In Canada we see alot of Rickshaws. Cannot find a link but they are great. Similar to a "pull" cart but with two very large large wheels. They are designed to be pushed. Virtually effortless. The wheels would be twice the size of the Sun Mountain cart posted earlier.

After playing with a doctor he explained to me that a "pull" cart is not very good for my back. Push carts are far better. I now carry as often as possible and find it better that a "pull" cart.  When my back does act up, I will use a "push" cart.
Most private clubs here are going to the Rickshaws. None charge for them that I am aware of.
If I find a link, I will post it for the rickshaws. I have not seen one in the US.

[Brent Hutto]

Not trying to pick on John but he's nailed down exactly what I find so damned bloody-minded and counter productive about these silly kinds of policies.

If I understand correctly, he doesn't wish to take a caddie more than once a week. So he ends up using a cart instead of a caddie for a round or two a week instead even though he'd rather be walking. The caddie still doesn't get hired AND John doesn't get to walk.

So who or what the hell is getting protected in this setup? I can't imagine the caddies standing around thinking "Well, I may not be working today but at least that guy is riding instead of pushing a SpeedCart. Whew, what a relief".

I just fail to miss the point on how John walking but only having nine clubs or riding in a cart when he'd rather be walking accomplishes anything except annoying John. It's one thing to sacrifice your own preferences in order to do good for another person. It seems quite another to do it just in support of an abstract principle that seems rather ill-defined.

[John Kavanaugh]

"my clubs do not allow push carts."

John, that's a pity...for $150 you could buy a nice Sun Mountain Speed Cart, carry all the clubs you want, and play more golf...and after all...playing more golf, in the manner you desire, is what its all about.

Craig,

I don't believe for a second that playing golf in the manner that I desire is what it is all about.

[Brent Hutto]

I don't believe for a second that playing golf in the manner that I desire is what it is all about.

In that case, ignore my previous post. When dealing with a True Believer (tm) of some kind, mere mortal logic can not be applied. John, I didn't realize you had it in you  

[John Kavanaugh]

Brent,

We have some caddies that have been with the club since the day it was opened.  I believe they get as much work as they desire and are a more vital part of the club than me.  I am saying that if we allow push carts these men will soon be out of work or forced to be forecaddies which they hate.  Carrying single is much better work than forecaddying if you are a grown man and not into running ahead. Here is the question.  Should the club buy push carts so I can save a few bucks and put these men out of work...I say no.  Should a man lose a job he loves so I can carry five more clubs when I play a round of golf...I say no.  Should the club attempt to do whatever it takes to make me happy even though I knew full well when I joined that push carts was not an option...If they do it for me they will have to do it for everybody and then it all goes to hell.

In the long run I believe the policy of not having push carts is going to work out best for me.  I have already lost 25 lbs and am getting in better shape by carrying 9 clubs when I play.  As my weight goes down my club count should go up...If I had a push cart I would have zero motivation to get in better shape.

[Ken Moum]

If I find a link, I will post it for the rickshaws. I have not seen one in the US.

You spelled it wrong.
http://www.theriksha.com/Products/products.html

I have seen them at two clubs in AZ, and my course in KS has a few, although they are losing out to the newer rental three wheelers from Bag Boy.

People couldn't figure out the Riksha, and many ended up pulling it.

I thought I heard that Bandon originally had some, and encouraged people taking them across the greens.

K

[Brent Hutto]

So basically the idea is that push carts would be so much more attractive to the membership than caddies that the caddies wouldn't have a chance. You're saying the caddies can barely hold their own against power carts and would be done for if they had to compete with a choice of power carts or push carts.

Since this whole deal is so foreign to my experience I'll take your word for the dynamics of it. As you say, you knew all this going in so it's not like there's anything unfair about the way it works out for you.

For my part, if caddies were free I'd still rather have my three-wheeler. Ideally, I'd not even need the trolley but my right shoulder says otherwise after about fifteen holes. It may be that some people's ideal round involves strolling down the fairway with a caddie carrying the bag. Mine has more to do with the least people and least complication to deal with from the time I leave home until I'm walking down the first fairway and having a caddie along feels to me like an encumberence.

Then again I'm just two generations removed from sharecroppers and still get vaguely queasy on occasion about having a lawn service cut my grass. So I have a certain inborn level of discomfort with a lot of personal services that other people find enjoyable.

[Mike Hendren]

I am saying that if we allow push carts these men will soon be out of work...  

Barney, I never pegged you for a Luddite.  Surely you employ technology in the paving business that has cost a few men their jobs over the history of the industry?

What's worse:

This:


or this:


Mike

[John_Cullum]

I believe courses should do everything they can to encourage people to walk.

Why?

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