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David Miller

Walking up the 10th fairway at Bethpage Black last summer, I experienced something for the first time--I felt completely inadequate at the hands of the course.  As a single-digit handicap, I knew I could still make some pars and enjoy the course, but I realized that even my "A" game would be overmatched.

Has anyone here ever experienced something similar?  I believe this is some derivation of what is referred to on Wikipedia as the "Carnoustie Effect" (due to the players' experience there in '99).

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2007, 10:05:12 PM »
Only 1 course, Oakmont
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2007, 10:13:36 PM »
Twice at Spyglass.  I don't know why but the course just beats me like a yard dog.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Its my game that makes me feel inadequate, not the course.  I'm long enough and when hitting the ball well with my "A" game can control it well enough to play anywhere.  But I'm realistic and know that I'm not going to consistently be able to control the ball well over and over again for 18 (or even 9) straight holes even on my best day.  I'm going to hit some hooks at the wrong time, mishit some easy shots I shouldn't, etc.  But if I hit those shots at the wrong time I'm just as screwed even on an easy course.  A tough course may give me more "wrong times" available to screw myself with a bad shot, but I know I've got the game to hit the good shots they demand.  Just not all on the same day ;)

Should I feel inadequate if hitting the ball the way I'm capable of when I hit it well will give me a good chance at par on pretty much any hole in the world? (really nasty conditions on a given day notwithstanding)  I don't think so.  I'm not sure whether you should either, depending on what you mean by "I could still make some pars".

I've never had any trouble with Carnoustie, hell I'm -2 lifetime on the last three holes there over my two trips (any pro would be willing to pay a million bucks for that performance on Open weekend, I wish I could sell it!)  But Prestwick, a course that far fewer would name as a beast, has had my number, with a 95 on my first trip and a 102 on the second.  If I wasn't playing "drop a ball near where I think it was lost and add 2" when I lost a ball without a provisional in play rather than walking back to the tee, those numbers might have been higher!

Granted, conditions were tough, but the conditions weren't much tougher there than at Turnberry, which I played the day before once and the day after the next, and shot in the 70s both times.  Prestwick just seems to have my number, but I'm not willing to concede defeat and declare myself inadequate to its challenges.  I just need another chance.  Or maybe another half dozen chances, who knows?  One of these days I'll be hitting the ball the way I know I'm capable of instead of hitting the crap I have there before and it'll fold like a cheap suit at my onslaught ;D
My hovercraft is full of eels.

David Miller

Doug--Thanks a lot your reponse.  

I understand completely what you're saying about your game making you feel inadequate, not the course.  To explain what I was saying my original post, I played very well for me at Bethpage--piped my driver, putted great--and still walked off the course with an 83, whereas it would have been a 73 on most courses.  On the 10th hole, I hit a great drive and still had over 240 yards all carry to the green.  At that point, I realized that I even though I still had a chance at par (I made a bogey), I just didn't have the skills to take it to the course.  Even if I hit the ball as well as I could out there, I knew I wasn't likely to make par more than half the time.  

I'll keep your troubles at Prestwick in mind as I plan a Scotland trip later this year--I was considering making that my first stop but maybe not now!

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Wente Vineyards always does that to me. Between the far-away driving range and the first and second teeshots being so tough, I'm not sure I've ever been even par after two - and the first six holes there are probably the easy ones. After that all the holes are windy and tough and long, and the greens are fast.

I think I've made one birdie there in my last three rounds.

Knowing that pro's occasionally shoot under par there under tougher conditions accentuate the feelings even more.

Rich Goodale

My home course, Aberdour (5400, par 67) beats the crap of me.  I play to about a 9 or 10 there, but 4-5 on "Championship" courses.  There are so many birdie chances at Aberdour, that when you get a bogie, you feel like you have dropped two shots.  There is additional pressure in that you know that out there on the course are phalanxes of 15-20 handicappers, at least one of whom is going to bunt the ball down the middle, have a good chipping and putting day, and score 73 gross, while I'm struggling to remain in the buffer zone.

Give me Carnoustie, with a low handicap field, any day.  They'll struggle to break 85 nd wonder why that geezer (moi!) can shoot 77.  Role reversal, and all that......

Rich Goodale

Happy May Day, Sean!

I suspect that the maypoles and Morris Dancers and Scargillites in your quaint part of Britain will be out in force today.

You are by all means welcome to come and play Aberdour, at any time, as is any GCAer who is willing to give up a day at Turnberry or Glenagles for the chacne to play "hidden gem" golf.  So many of our brethren drive by me on their way from Muirfield to the Old Course, that there are days in the summer when I can even smell the ProV1's driving by in the rented beemers......

Aberdour was recently included in the top 12 of a Fife ranking of courses (using GCA.com approved criteria).  It probably ain't quite that good, but it's not at all bad.  And, it was even better (I am told) when it was a par 63, routed with genius over 50-60 acres.  It was then (1950-1970) and there when all the great golfers Aberdour produced cut their teeth.

Rich Goodale

Sean

AS a Detroiter, you can always pretend you are a Canadian.  Most of the people who suss an "accent" ask if I am a Canadian, hoping for a "Yes" and then lowering their eyes when they realize I am South of the Border.  I can't bear to tell him that my ancestors kicked their butts at Lexington and Concord.

BTW, my 14-year old daughter is near the end of a month-long student exchange in Tornoto, and she went o Niagara Falls (Canadian side) and thought it was "carp."  Is that nature or nurture?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Olympic made me feel that way when I was 17 and thought I could play.

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2007, 09:16:06 AM »
Whistling Straits, in a 30mph breeze made me feel very small.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2007, 09:40:59 AM »
Kiawah -- Ocean course. And PGA West Stadium.

Not to hijack, but there are just some courses that are much better played at match play. You know, no numbers on the card, just up, down, or all square. The above are two such.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2007, 09:51:41 AM »
Gillette Ridge makes me feel very inadequate.  As a mid-teens handicapper, I feel like I'm going out to try to break 100 there.  Part of it is mental, as that course and I got off to a bad start.

The number of hazards, forced carries, and greeens with no outs whatsoever compound to frustrate me, which leads to even worse scoring.  It doesn't help that I always play the first hole, in my opinion one of the most straight-forward on the course, very poorly.

I don't live in CT anymore, but that course makes me feel inadequate enough that Wintonbury Hills becomes an easy choice when I'm in the Bloomfield area.

tlavin

Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2007, 10:15:29 AM »
I would second Doak's thoughts about Olympic.  The negative camber fairways, the uphill holes and the pesky greens combined to just beat the snot out of me the several times I played.  TPC Sawgrass is another course that just pounds me.

Rich Goodale

Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2007, 10:30:53 AM »
Terry

Sawgrass pounded me too the first time I played it (1982), but after moving there for a few years and playing it fairly regularly I found I could score low there from time to time.  Of course, it was a far easier course in 1988 (after they had removed the Buicks from the greens) than it was in 1982.

Rich

David Miller

Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2007, 12:59:30 PM »
Quote
As several Clint Eastwood movie characters have said
"A man's got to know his limitations". Know yours and
you will have more fun.

Having my limitations exposed at Bethpage was exactly what made me feel inadequate.  That round was the first time my top game didn't put me around par or at least in the 70's.  I guess that's why it's a US Open course, but it was nonetheless a humbling experience.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2007, 02:16:16 PM »
BB was the first round I had in a while where I realized I felt overmatched.

As about a 0.5, i shot 81 there in summer 06.

I do think, now knowing what each hole entails, I could shoot a 74 or 75 there, but there are definately shots that defy my golf game.  I was driving the ball well that day and long for me (280+ every hole), but a couple approaches were just impossible.  

Many holes there call for long irons even after very long drives, but the elevated greens are what gets you.  Most players have a club for 210, but not 210 to a green set 25 feet above you with a 20-ft deep bunker in front.  I had this problem on the longest fours, #5, #10, and especially #15.

On 15, I hit a 295-yd drive about 3 ft. into the right rough.  From here I had about 167.  The green is blind (you can see the pin though) and there is a cavernous bunker short, spanning the entire front edge, the bottom of the pit is maybe 30 feet below the green.  Honestly, I dont think I have enough club in my bag for that shot, even though it was only 167.  I can't imagine what I would have had if my drive had been short.  I probably should've just pitched to the bottom of the hill and attacked with a wedge, but that was no fun.  I layed open a 5-iron, swung out of my shoes and hit it in the bunker, eventually making 6.  Great.

Next time around, I may layup a few times.  It won't be as fun, but might help me break 80.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2007, 02:25:34 PM »
A long, long time ago, in a golf galaxy far, far away, I played Blackwolf Run (River) with 3 guys who were on their way up to play in the US Open at Hazeltine.  

Blackwolf Run (River) was the course I thought of when I saw the thread name. Just brutal -- though I played brutally, too, the one time I played it.

The other one was Sand Hills, from the tips, at a time when I had no driver I could hit. It was a long, nasty course in the wind with 1-irons off the tee.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Steve Hyden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2007, 04:05:18 PM »
My last year in Chicago, 1993, I was in a group that had a standing Sunday morning tee time at Dubsdread.  We were all single digits, always played from the tips, and always in the 80s or worse.

TEPaul

Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2007, 04:42:03 PM »
"--I felt completely inadequate at the hands of the course.  As a single-digit handicap, I knew I could still make some pars and enjoy the course, but I realized that even my "A" game would be overmatched.
Has anyone here ever experienced something similar?"

David Miller:

Although I thought you were, you're not the Dave Miller I know, are you? From Charles River, Boston, that is?

Have I ever felt inadequate at the hands of a golf course?

Look pal, it doesn't take the hands of some f... golf course to make me feel inadequate. I am inadequate---I admit it.

I can feel that way all by myself without a God damned golf course in sight. Part of the reason is I could hit my Sunday best driver and I doubt it could penetrate the first three pages of the Christian Science Monitor if it was stretched directly in front of me.

One time when I was playing great some years ago I was up in Canada at a tournament and some of those mountain men Canadian animals just for kicks after a few drinks were hitting driver right through telephone books.

I said to myself what do those Canadian wooden heads have that I don't so I teed it up, hauled off and hit the shit out of it and my ball hit that telephone book, ricochetted right back off it and knocked me flat on my back.

Do you think I was pissed off about that? You're damn straight I was so I got up and kicked the tar outta that telephone book and broke my right big toe. Then I hobbled up in pain really pissed, picked up my driver and tried to break it and I couldn't even do that. Damn right I feel inadequate. Wouldn't you if you were me?    
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 04:47:52 PM by TEPaul »

Mark Bourgeois

Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2007, 05:07:41 PM »
Another classic...kicker is that Canadian phone books must be pretty thin.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2007, 05:14:57 PM »
"--I felt completely inadequate at the hands of the course.  As a single-digit handicap, I knew I could still make some pars and enjoy the course, but I realized that even my "A" game would be overmatched.
Has anyone here ever experienced something similar?"

David Miller:

Although I thought you were, you're not the Dave Miller I know, are you? From Charles River, Boston, that is?

Have I ever felt inadequate at the hands of a golf course?

Look pal, it doesn't take the hands of some f... golf course to make me feel inadequate. I am inadequate---I admit it.

I can feel that way all by myself without a God damned golf course in sight. Part of the reason is I could hit my Sunday best driver and I doubt it could penetrate the first three pages of the Christian Science Monitor if it was stretched directly in front of me.

One time when I was playing great some years ago I was up in Canada at a tournament and some of those mountain men Canadian animals just for kicks after a few drinks were hitting driver right through telephone books.

I said to myself what do those Canadian wooden heads have that I don't so I teed it up, hauled off and hit the shit out of it and my ball hit that telephone book, ricochetted right back off it and knocked me flat on my back.

Do you think I was pissed off about that? You're damn straight I was so I got up and kicked the tar outta that telephone book and broke my right big toe. Then I hobbled up in pain really pissed, picked up my driver and tried to break it and I couldn't even do that. Damn right I feel inadequate. Wouldn't you if you were me?    

Thomas, you must stop these types of posts! I'm sick as a dog today and almost died from lack of oxygen (very congested) while reading this. Very funny stuff! :)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 05:15:53 PM by David Stamm »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Miller

Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2007, 05:53:40 PM »

Looks like I'm gonna have to get used to the various posting styles on here...funny stuff, indeed.  


Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2007, 10:16:25 PM »
I normally would agree on this about the Glass, but let me ask this.  Did you pick the appropriate tees for your level?

I was very tempted to play from the blues at 6,900+.  The ego was kicking in eventhough I normally go for the nearest to 6,500 yards or so for a tee.  Anyway, I simply asked the starter what he recommended for my 15 HC and he told me to play the golds and maybe even the whites.

I played from the whites just so I didn't beat myself up.

Taking the starter's advice was my wise move for that day...  

Had plenty to contend with on the greens.


Twice at Spyglass.  I don't know why but the course just beats me like a yard dog.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2007, 11:49:55 PM »
Re:The Carnoustie Effect: has a course ever made you feel inadequate?

Stone Eagle, June 2006. temperature 116 degrees F. Post 18 holes at The Plantation.

I quit after four holes.

Quite hated the place.

Joe Perches thought it delightful, I ceded my match to him and the Kings Puttter was lost .

Bob

Bob

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