[T.J. Sturges]

Though I don't place much emphasis on Golf Digest's panelists findings, I thought it was interesting to note that Pete Dye now has "only" 8 courses in the Top 100 in the US according to GD's most recent list.  Of those 8, only 3 were built after 1990 (The Ocean Course at Kiawah, Pete Dye GC and Whistling Straits).  I'm sure those more knowledgeable about the GD lists over the years could cite facts on this, but it seems to me that many of his courses have made it onto this list in the past and have since dropped off (Blackwolf Run, PGA West, Old Marsh, and Crooked Stick in my hometown are 4 that come to mind).  

The 5 that remain on this year's GD list built pre 1990 (The Honors Course, The Golf Club, Long Cove, TPC Sawgrass, and Harbour Town) all seem to endure as exceptional golf courses.  Of all those I have mentioned above, the only one built pre 1980 that has dropped off the map is Crooked Stick, which has been reconstructed by Mr. Dye on several occasions.  

Did his work get worse after 1990?  As he became more experienced, why did his more recent projects suffer in comparison to his earliest work?  Do architects run out of good ideas?  Crooked Stick, The Golf Club and Harbour Town were 3 of his earliest high profile projects.  Of the 3, I am told nothing has been touched by Mr. Dye since he finished the course in the 60's, and it seems to have "held up" the best in the eyes of the course rating community.  Crooked Stick has endured the most "improvements" and it has suffered the greatest decline in acclaim of these 3.  What's up with that?  Is Golf Digest wrong in their assessment of his work?  Has Mr. Dye damaged some of his own work?  What do others think of this?

TS

[John Kavanaugh]

Ted,

I can't look it up myself because I'm playing poker but Golf Digest has the historical top 100 linked on their ranking page.  I think you will also find that Golfweek has fallen out of love with PD...The recent fall of The Golf Club was most disturbing.

[Andy Troeger]

Ted,

Blackwolf Run River is still on the top 100 at #69. Regarding your more overall question, I've wondered between all of the Pete Dye courses I've seen whether his older (and sometimes simpler) work was better. The Golf Club is my favorite of the bunch and Harbour Town is near the top of the list. I like Whistling Straits, but not as much as those two (or Blackwolf Run).

Crooked Stick did surprise me in falling off the list. I'll be interested in seeing if it returns next time around as Sycamore Hills did this time around. Long Cove is solid as well.

[David_Elvins]

Ted,

I don't know the numbers but I would think the reason that he has more courses pre 1990 in the top 100 is that he built more courses pre 1990.  

Infact a ratio of 3:5 courses in the top 100 might even indicate that he is improving post 1990.  

EDIT: just went and read the list and thought  i saw 5 courses by Pete Dye on th list built during the nineties.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Dye Fore vs. Teeth of the Dog

Fore is a bigger bolder more heavily shaped course.
Maybe he spends too much time combating the modern tour player and their equipment.

Less time on site doesn't help.

[Brad Klein]

Eight courses among the top 0.625% of all 16,000 U.S. layouts is a pretty impressive lifetime achievement, especially when that includes work done over a 30-year span. Nothing to apologize for there.

As for Crooked Stick, I don't think it has been "improved" at all. Each time Dye tinkers with it the course deviates more from its character, and he planted way too many trees that are now growing in.

[Tom_Doak]

Nearly all of Mr. Dye's courses are ones where he lived for an extended period during construction, such as Long Cove, where he lived for several months.  He hasn't done that nearly as much in the last 20 years, so his more recent courses are not as admired.

I haven't seen Crooked Stick for many years so I can't comment on  whether recent changes have anything to do with its drop, but I agree with Brad that the last changes I saw had gotten away from the original character of the course.  I'm only surprised that this has had more effect on its GOLF DIGEST ranking (which is all based on numbers and where design continuity doesn't have much standing) as opposed to the other rankings which are more subjective.

[KBanks]

As a kid who spent several summers caddying and working at Crooked Stick, I watched Pete come back summer after summer and revise the golf course. I think he had a house there. I think at some point the club decided they wanted to host a major championship. Mrs. Dye and P.B. were on the scene a lot. You could nearly mark your calendar by the arrival of the bulldozers.

Crooked Stick had some genuinely wild greens before: I recall 10, 11, 13, and 17 as much more interesting. I recall Pete saying that you couldn't maintain such contours with increased green speeds.  

I am sorry to hear that they have been planting trees, as the course used to have an linkslike openness to it. Trees weren't really part of the strategy.

Speaking of trees, how is Broadmoor playing these days Ted?

Ken

[T.J. Sturges]

Ken,

Broadmoor has removed more than 300 trees and last fall Bruce Hepner completed the work on the master plan the club accepted from Renaissance Golf Design.  This included re-capturing lost corners of all the putting greens, tree removal, a new state of the art irrigation system, recontouring the fairways to put many bunkers back in play, as well as some bunker renovation.  We have added 7 acres of additional fairway surface to the course.  It's really, really good. If you haven't seen Broadmoor in 3 years, then you haven't seen Broadmoor. It looks the best it has looked in probably 60 years.  Sadly, the club has lost members in the last 2 years and is in a challenging financial position.  We will be working hard to attract new members this year and next.  I think it is one of the funnest golf courses to play in all of Indiana.  Tell all your friends to strongly consider Broadmoor when selecting an Indianapolis club.

TS

[John Kavanaugh]

Tell all your friends to strongly consider Broadmoor when selecting an Indianapolis club.

TS

I made an offer and they turned me down.

[Bill_McBride]

Tell all your friends to strongly consider Broadmoor when selecting an Indianapolis club.

I made an offer and they turned me down.

Imagine that!  

[KBanks]

Ted, thanks for the Broadmoor update. I haven't seen it in more than twenty years, but I am glad to hear it has been restored. A terrific Ross course. It always struck me as an ideal home club. Maybe you could convince Ran to do an update to his review of Broadmoor. It might be instructive on the benefits of restoration and tree removal.

Ken

[Tim Liddy]

It seems to coincide exactly with when Tim Liddy started to with him. Coincidence? I think not.

[T.J. Sturges]

To Tom Doak:

Tom,

You make an interesting inference about the amount of time Mr. Dye spent on site on some of his projects and the fact that as he got more successful he has not continued to do this as much, which might provide an explanation as to fewer "ranked" courses for Mr. Dye post 1990.

You told me once that you basically lived on site at High Pointe (your first course) during construction.  I know that you have spent a great deal of time on site at several of your courses over the years.  Because of your success, you are now at a point where (like Mr. Dye post 1990) it can be harder to do this.  Can you in 2007 and beyond organize your business in a way different from Mr. Dye to ensure that you are able to spend as much time as is necessary to meet the high standards you have now set for yourself?  Is there a lesson to be learned from studying Mr. Dye's career in this regard for you and other young architects?  Must you limit the number of courses you will work on each year?

TS

[Matt Kardash]

Last time I checked, Pete Dye is an old guy (81? 82?). I think the main reason he hasn't spent as much time on site the past 15 years is that he got old. As much as he loves to do what he does, he ain't 40 or 50 years old anymore. I can't blame him for that.

It seems to coincide exactly with when Tim Liddy started to with him. Coincidence? I think not.

Tim, you suck  

[Forrest Richardson]

The Work of Pete and Alice[/b] Dye

I cannot help but relate the story of Alice applying for membership in the ASGCA. Pete attended the interview, supporting Alice's accomplishments and contributions.

"In fact, if the truth be known, Alice has done a majority of the work along side me for the past 20 years," said Pete.

Whereupon Jack Snyder, then ASGCA's president, said, "OK, Pete, that settles it...Alice is in and you're out!" (Joking, of course.)

[Tony Ristola]

Perhaps mounded designs have lost their luster.

I found the following humerous.

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/dyepreserve_loxahatchee.html

Fifteen years later, Webster says, the market went from $20,000 memberships to $150,000 ones, and to compete, he needed to upgrade his private course with new irrigation and grasses. Dye, who spends winters in nearby Delray Beach, convinced Webster to redo the whole design while he was at it. Dye spent 130 days on the job, supervising the demolition of most of his high mounds ("What was I thinking?" he said more than once) and rebuilding the greens to much milder surfaces.

"(Pete jokes that this is his "retirement plan," to renovate all his classic older designs, changing greens to accommodate today's green speeds, upgrading irrigation and turfgrasses, rethinking strategies and bunker locations and, yes, adding length, so that after he's gone, there'll be no need for people to "screw up" his best works for at least 20 years. In recent years, he's redone his Oak Tree Golf Club, Harbour Town and The Ocean Course, to name drop just a few.)"

What was done at Oak Tree? Anyone know?

[T.J. Sturges]

This is interesting.  Seems like scores of golf course architects have made their living going back to courses that were designed by the masters, then later "compromised" by some "middle" architect.  Will somebody end up making their living "restoring" Pete Dye courses to their original specs when Pete himself was the middle architect who "updated" them?

TS

[Craig Van Egmond]

Tony,

         They completely redid all of the greens at Oak Tree removing most of the elephants and making them less severe.  A number of greens were expanded to make them more receptive. Its still a tough course, but the greens have been tamed somewhat, its a kindler gentler course. And of course the hangmans noose is gone.  

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