Why some architects make great restorations/renovations

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
At least you appear to agree their is a niche for specialists (not that guys like Ron Prichard  or George Bahto were worried)    The training aspect is not worth arguing about as everyone will have their ideas.  At the end of the day it is what you deliver that counts the most.  Just think if no one took a chance on Pete Dye (a trained insurance salesman).  Didn't he use that line one time, "those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those of us who are doing it."  There are different ways to get into different businesses but everyone gets their start somewhere.  Some guys are now soooo busy they can't spend the time like they used to and most of these projects take time and lots of patience.  That creates opportunities for others.  I know when Lehigh hired Ron Forse, the guy who hired him will tell you he was pretty green and didn't have much of a resume but he seemed to know something about Flynn and were it not for him, Lehigh would have hired a "tried and true" and it would no longer exist as we now know it.  Good thing they took the risk and hired a perceived specialist.  

Mark,
I have no issues with Ron Pritchard or George Bahto...I really enoy Aronimink and think George's book is one of the best.  I think Ron has actually done some 18 hole courses of his own at one time.  The specialist I speak of are the guys that are coming out of the woodwork after having read a few golf books and joining a few "Dead guy" groups.  it is just pure BS...., to take the words of another famous architect..."OLD STANDARD FOR HIRING A GOLF COURSE ARCHITECT  - MUST HAVE PREPARED AT LEAST FIVE CONSTRUCTION SPEC BOOKS.....NEW STANDARD FOR HIRING A GOLF COURSE ARCHITECT-MUST HAVE READ AT LEAST FIVE GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE HISTORY BOOKS.....
And I agree that there are many ways to get into the business having done it myself in an unorthodox way.  BUT I never went and described myself as a "Historic specialist" in doing it.  Reason being...that is BS.....and i also think most of us including Pete Dye will say that after many courses we keep learning.....
Having said the above...if Pete Dye were to  stop tomorrow and do nothing but restoration I would say he is qualified.....If a gentleman such as Ron Pritchard wants to be classified as a specialist since he has done his own projects..I would consider him qualified.....BUT if a guy comes along and says he has done a bunker here and a tee there...read a few architecture books .....he ain't qalified to work on courses worthy of saving.  NOW he may have a good sales pitch for working on local courses with no expectations looking for a deal BUT not on anything of historical value.....now after he has climbed from these local small jobs into doing 18 hole complete projects and he wants to read a few books and maybe even join a "dead guy" fan club where he can be advised ......then heck yeah...he can call himself a specialist.....
It used to be guys started out doing small projects in order to get their first projects...I did....but I did not list every golf course  where I visited and met the supt as a consulting job on my website....that is now common with some of these guys.....
As I have said b4..do you think Donald Ross, Tillnghast, Flynn or some of the other dead guys would want a guy that had never done any of his own work restoring one of their courses.....HELL NO.
I don't think this actually worries any of us that have been doing this for some time.....I just find it amusing and disrespectful of people that have spent years learning this trade.....
Well..got to go..just finished a book on knee replacement and Sears has a sale on tools....shouldn't be that hard I might make a few mstakes bt somebody must be looking for a deal....and I read te book.
Take care,
Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I am in Scotland reading your post.  

I agree with everything you said, except for your assumption that American clubs EVER understood the CULTURE of golf and got it right.  The Scottish clubs are so much more simple, and they make 100% sense; I don't think I've ever visited a club in America as pure and as simple and sensible as Prestwick, which we played this afternoon.

You also failed to mention one of the factors which has led clubs to the brink ... poorly conceived renovations of clubhouses and poorly conceived $3 million renovations (or restorations) of golf courses financed by debt with the hope of making the club more competitive.

I believe the fallout from all the factors you suggest will be a lot more public golf courses across America, which won't be an entirely bad thing.

P.S.  We've brought uncle George Bahto over to Scotland with us ... he'd never been here ... he has seen the real Redan and the real Alps in the past two days and his head is already spinning.  (Wait til he sees St. Andrews tomorrow!)

[SL_Solow]

Tom; please report on George's reaction to St. Andrews.  As for Pat's comments and your additions its hard to say anything other than the analysis is cogent and the results will continue to be seen.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Next time you have to tell all of us how you really feel    

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Next time you have to tell all of us how you really feel    

Mark,
Nah...can't say that on line.
Take care,
Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

I am in Scotland reading your post.  

I agree with everything you said, except for your assumption that American clubs EVER understood the CULTURE of golf and got it right.  The Scottish clubs are so much more simple, and they make 100% sense; I don't think I've ever visited a club in America as pure and as simple and sensible as Prestwick, which we played this afternoon.

You're probably correct, but, relatively speaking, golfing Cultures did exist at American Clubs.[/color]

You also failed to mention one of the factors which has led clubs to the brink ... poorly conceived renovations of clubhouses and poorly conceived $3 million renovations (or restorations) of golf courses financed by debt with the hope of making the club more competitive.

I did mention those items under the general umbrella of fiscal irresponsibility and getting themselve in trouble.
It also seems that projects estimated to cost $ 1,500,000 end up costing far more, between add on's, work order changes and overruns.  So, the funding structured to support a project of $ 1,500,000 is insufficient to support a
project that ends up costing $ 3,000,000, ergo, more financial pressure on the membership.[/color]

I believe the fallout from all the factors you suggest will be a lot more public golf courses across America, which won't be an entirely bad thing.

Agreed, you'll get all the amenities without any of the financial burdens[/color]

P.S.  We've brought uncle George Bahto over to Scotland with us ... he'd never been here ... he has seen the real Redan and the real Alps in the past two days and his head is already spinning.  (Wait til he sees St. Andrews tomorrow!)


I'm jealous.
Have fun[/color]

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Take a look at that thread titled "Does something look wrong with this restoration".  Do you still think they should have used a "tried and true"?  If you saw enough of this kind of "restoration", you might feel differently about others out there trying to do the right thing    Maybe Fazio should have read a few more books  

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Take a look at that thread titled "Does something look wrong with this restoration".  Do you still think they should have used a "tried and true"?  If you saw enough of this kind of "restoration", you might feel differently about others out there trying to do the right thing    Maybe Fazio should have read a few more books  

Mark,
What were his marching orders?  Was the club satisfied?  whether this website likes the style or not....I will bet the majority of the members like it and are satisifed with the results......

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
In one of your posts above you said:

"As I have said b4..do you think Donald Ross, Tillnghast, Flynn or some of the other dead guys would want a guy that had never done any of his own work restoring one of their courses.....HELL NO."

I wonder what Devereux Emmet thinks of the work at Wee Burn?  He might be begging to differ with your quote above and thinking maybe someone who was little more passionate about retaining/restoring his work might have gotten the job rather than someone who might be better off leaving the classics alone and doing their own creative work elsewhere.  Of course that is just my opinion and we'll never know what Mr. Emmet really thinks.  

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
In one of your posts above you said:

"As I have said b4..do you think Donald Ross, Tillnghast, Flynn or some of the other dead guys would want a guy that had never done any of his own work restoring one of their courses.....HELL NO."

I wonder what Devereux Emmet thinks of the work at Wee Burn?  He might be begging to differ with your quote above and thinking maybe someone who was little more passionate about retaining/restoring his work might have gotten the job rather than someone who might be better off leaving the classics alone and doing their own creative work elsewhere.  Of course that is just my opinion and we'll never know what Mr. Emmet really thinks.  

Mark,
I don't know what he would have thought.....I am quite certain TF would have much more experience than the Emmett fellow.....and I would stand by my statement that someone such as TF would do a better job thasn someone who had not done his own work.....BUT that is just my opinion....there is so much that pictures don't show.....I would bet it is a much mre sound golf course now....
Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil McDade,

The only hope I see for reversing this trend is as follows.
 
A cadre of like minded members, those aligned with the old culture, must regain the power base.
 
Then, expenses must be cut, with capital expenditures halted.

The club has to be transitioned from a country club to a golf club.

And, the remaining members must accept higher dues/costs in return for a return to the glory days of the club.
 
Absent that scenario, I don't see anything that will stop the club from becoming a collection of people with little in common, including the love of the game of golf.