Playing from the wrong set of tees - a test of architecture quality

[Jason Topp]

Usually, any group I play with will all play from the same tees.  I think technology has made this issue a more important factor on courses of today.  Players of similar abilities hit the ball a wide variety of distances.  I have played with people close to my handicap who hit it as short as 200 yards off the tee and as long as 290 or so.

I think whether the course sets up an interesting challenge for a player hitting from the "wrong" tees is a pretty decent indication of the quality of the design.

Comments?  Examples?

[Mark_F]

Jason,

I would agree with this thesis.

Good examples:  Royal Melbourne West, Barnbougle Dunes, Macrihanish, Woodlands.

Poor example:  National Moonah.

[Ken Moum]

Usually, any group I play with will all play from the same tees.  I think technology has made this issue a more important factor on courses of today.  Players of similar abilities hit the ball a wide variety of distances.  I have played with people close to my handicap who hit it as short as 200 yards off the tee and as long as 290 or so.

I think whether the course sets up an interesting challenge for a player hitting from the "wrong" tees is a pretty decent indication of the quality of the design.

Comments?  Examples?

I'd be fascinated to hear your explanation of why you think this is true.

I'm a short hitter whose handicap has ranged from 8-12 for the last seveal years. I hit it just over 200 yards, and like to play tees in the 6,000 - 6,300 range.

If I play a great course from the "wrong" tees, say 6,900 yards, it will beat me to death.

If my brother, a long-hitting 2 handicapper, plays from 6,000 yards, he's going to be hitting a LOT of wedges.

However, if you mean a great course makes it possible for us both to enjoy playing from the same tees, I think there's only one formula to accomplish that.

Look at the "high slope" thread.

If a course has a (relatively) high course rating and a (relatively) low slope we can both enjoy and be challenged by the course.

But if the course rating is low--meaning it's fairly short, and the slope is high--meaning there are lots of obstacles, he won't be challenged, and I won't finish many of the holes.

Although some great courses fit the formula, I'm not convinced that there's any correlation between the formula and greatness.

K

[Jason Topp]

]

I'd be fascinated to hear your explanation of why you think this is true.

I'm a short hitter whose handicap has ranged from 8-12 for the last seveal years. I hit it just over 200 yards, and like to play tees in the 6,000 - 6,300 range.

If I play a great course from the "wrong" tees, say 6,900 yards, it will beat me to death.

If my brother, a long-hitting 2 handicapper, plays from 6,000 yards, he's going to be hitting a LOT of wedges.

However, if you mean a great course makes it possible for us both to enjoy playing from the same tees, I think there's only one formula to accomplish that.

Look at the "high slope" thread.

If a course has a (relatively) high course rating and a (relatively) low slope we can both enjoy and be challenged by the course.

But if the course rating is low--meaning it's fairly short, and the slope is high--meaning there are lots of obstacles, he won't be challenged, and I won't finish many of the holes.

Although some great courses fit the formula, I'm not convinced that there's any correlation between the formula and greatness.

K

I hit the ball about 250 yards.  Here are a couple of examples of what I consider bad courses for me when played from the wrong tees:

1.  Raven at South Mountain - Phoenix - When hosting a business group, I played there last week from tees that were around 6000 yards.  Rarely, if ever, was there an interesting decision on a tee shot on a par four.  I could usually hit it past any pinch point in the fairway and my job was simply to keep it between the trees and hit good wedge shots.  The only holes that improved for me from these tees were par fives which became reachable and therefore much more interesting than if I would have teed off 30 yards back.

2.  Wolf Creek(Mesquite)/La Paloma (Tucson) - They try and prevent customers from playing from the tips for a reason - they would never finish.  Carry distances are too long from the back tee for many.

Courses that flunk my test either (1) have carry hazards too long for the average player, or (2) have pinch point fairway hazards that do not create interest for one that hits it 50 yards longer or shorter than the tee is designed for.

By contrast, a golfer who hits it 200, 250 or 300 yards will have a ton of interesting decisions to make, if he plays the following courses at 6000, 6500 or 7000 yards.  He will also be able to finish his round and enjoy himself  

1.  The Old Course
2.  Royal Melbourne
3.  Pebble Beach
4.  Sand Hills
5.  Wild Horse
6  Pasatiempo
7.  Interlachen
8.  etc., etc.

In fact, if one looked at the top 100 courses from Golfweek, one would be hard pressed to find many courses that could not be played  from tees to far back and could not be enjoyed from tees too far forward.  Perhaps Pine Valley is the exception to this general rule.  I have not been there.

http://www.golfweek.com/americasbest/top100classic.php

The modern list would not be quite as clean but I believe, in most cases, my test would work pretty well.

[Steve Lang]

 

I think its more a test of intestinal fortitude (IT)..

I played last PM with Ms Sheila from the front Red tees last night.. at the WCC's Player course.. the test is to hit it to the best approach positions and execute.  

The IT factor is to refrain from bomb & gouge golf when faced with no distance problems.. i.e., to play the intended lines, avoid the hazards which drive the course slope, and be aggressive to the pin and putt it in..

 

[George Pazin]

I think whether the course sets up an interesting challenge for a player hitting from the "wrong" tees is a pretty decent indication of the quality of the design.

I love the idea, but it take a certain type of person to be able to handle it. You'd have to completely divorce yourself from score, par, that sort of thing.

To me, the mythical ideal course wouldn't just be perfect for all players, it would be perfect for all players from all tees.