[Padraig Dooley]

Can a great course be easy?

My own opinion is there's something wrong with a course if a good player can't shoot 66 on it, but 76 could appear just as quickly.

A great course can give up good scores, just not that easily (although most 66's appear easy).

Is this a valid opinion?

[Tom_Doak]

Padraig:

I used to agree with that, but no longer, if you mean that you want 76 by Tour pro level players to appear "just as quickly".  If Tour pros are shooting 76 as often as 66, the course is too tough for anybody else.

If a scratch player is your barometer, I'm fine with that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Didn't you or someone else state that Mike Keiser envisioned Bandon Dunes in the context of a viable product for the retail golfer ?

If so, isn't that the target market the golf courses are designed for, and not for the PGA Tour Pro.

How many golf courses are commissioned with the primary goal of challenging the greatest golfers in the world, the PGA Tour Pro ?

I would suspect very few.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

The answer to your last question is, unfortunately, way too many.  There are lots of developers who start off wanting a "great" course for that level of player without understanding what they are asking for ... and there are relatively few golf architects who want to jeopardize their relationship with a client at the early stage by questioning the logic of their opening statements.

Plus, just think about how many modern golf courses are designed by PGA Tour pros, few of whom are able to dismiss their own importance in the overall scheme of things.

[Peter Pallotta]

A question that I hope isn't too far off-topic.

Historically speaking, at what point did the "retail golfer" (by whatever name he/she went by) become an important guide and barometer for golf architecture and design?

In other words, was there a time when just about every designer would've said "there's something wrong with a course if a good player can't shoot 66 on it, but have a 76 could appear just as quickly"?

If there was, what changed?

Thanks
Peter

[JESII]

Historically speaking, at what point did the "retail golfer" (by whatever name he/she went by) become an important guide and barometer for golf architecture and design?

When it became a commodity as opposed to a sport...

[cary lichtenstein]

Both Pebble and Cypress are easier than Spyglass, and I prefer them as I think most do.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Can a great course be easy?

My own opinion is there's something wrong with a course if a good player can't shoot 66 on it, but 76 could appear just as quickly.

A great course can give up good scores, just not that easily (although most 66's appear easy).

Is this a valid opinion?

Padraig
If a good player can't shoot a 66, but a 76 could appear just as quickly, just a quickly being not at all if he can't do it, then the good player can't shoot a 76 either...

I'm not being facetioius here. I just don't understand the question.

[Marty Bonnar]

KBM and I agreed today that TOC can be a very easy golf course.

Pause for dramatic effect. Sounds of breath drawn between teeth and muttering off stage left.

We did go on to debate the effects of WEATHER upon the outcome of our golfing efforts on the links.

Our joint decision? The wind doth blowe and the golf doth suffereth. Maybe what actually makes the links special is the uncertainty, the uncontrollable and the unpredictable.

Bring it on this week!

FBD.

[Padraig Dooley]

Llyod

I'm talking about the range of scores that would be shot by a good player.

On great courses the range is wider then on average courses, on a great course playing well will lead to scores under 70 but playing poorly will lead to 80 or higher.

On an average course poor play does not normally lead to 80 or higher.

Did I explain it better?

Is this characteristic achievable?

[TEPaul]

I wouldn't put numbers to the answer to this question. What I would do is put a scoring spectrum on the question. Maidstone, I believe, is a golf course with a wide scoring spectrum---eg because of the scoring spectrum result of wind or lack of it. I doubt a tour pro would shoot a 76 on it in the worst of conditions but what he would shoot in the worst of conditions would probably have a very wide scoring spectrum from what he would shoot if the course was very tame.

To me that's sort of what it's all about.

Whether it's a hole or a whole golf course I think you will find that a wide scoring spectrum is what quality and interest is all about in a golf course---eg architecture.

[Steve Lang]

 

yes definitely.. keep it in play and not take yourself out of holes.. and with a healthy dose of course local knowledge.. hell,..  I shot a 77 at TOC first time.. it didn't hurt to walk the course on sunday, study the topo at the museum, and devour the yardage book before going to sleep the night before.. oh, and only have 12-15 mph winds at play..

[Lloyd_Cole]

Padraig
If this is a theory that you are proposing, I'm not a goood enough player to use my experience to comment. But if there is a vague logical IF THEN to be had,  would Tiger's performance at Bay Hill suggest that the course is great?

[Padraig Dooley]

Llyod

The logic might be that every great course has a wide scoring specturm but a course with a wide scoring spectrum isn't necessarily great. It's just one more trait among many that great courses possess.

Just like every great car has four wheels, but having four wheels doesn't make a car great. It's more then just this trait which makes the car great.

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